Giants Causeway

[Steve]

Thought I would start this thread with my breeding this year. I have my Elusive Quality Mare "Priceless Quality" (Her half brother is Honor-In-War) bred to Giants Causeway. Can't wait for this April foal!!!

When Giants stud fee went to $300.000.00 I decided to get a contract this year with "MineShaft". He is a mere $100,000.00.

Steve
TW

[elwood]

I remember "Priceless Quality" If I'm correct, she only raced once, but it was a winning one, at Belmont I think. Got the tip from you Steve that she was ready. went off at 5/1? How many years ago was that?
Good Luck with her, she's a winner.

[trifecta mark]

I have part of a mare named Illini Queen. She is sired by Indian Charlie. She has heart and has made us some money {all dirt} but not enough speed so we are looking for a speed sire that fits. Not interested in spending more than $40 k for the stud fee. May wait til next year now.

[ken]

What qualities of GC are you looking for? Career earnings?

[deltasports]

Exchange Rate $10k Ocala

City Zip $15k Ky

Disco Rico $4k Maryland

After Looking Over Your Mare And Going Back To Her 7th Dam,anyone Of The Above Would Do

[Steve]

I haven't looked yet, but Deltasports would be a person that Could nail the correct stallion. He is now a writer for Blood Horse and certainly knows his stuff.

Steve
TW

[dark owl]

Steve,
Are you going to race or sell the foal ?

[Steve]

DarkOwl,

Plans are--if the foal is correct--to sell as a yearling.

Steve

[mister zesterhouse]

L. Stich has nice write-up on son of Thunder Gulch's best (so far) 3 yr. old's:

Zito's Great Point (flying at Barbaro in Holy Bull)

Baffert's contingent: Point Determined, Point of Impact, Three Points

Jimmy Jerk's That's A Given

[Steve]

As many who know me personally also know that Lauren and I have been friends for many years. It was Lauren who guided me to the Elusive Quality filly, and Lauren who made the connections for me to get to Giants Causeway.

The foal will have her name on the breeding certificate along with ours.

Steve

TW

[dark owl]

If selling you picked the right sire. Hope she is healthy and correct.

[Mister Sanderson]

YOU MIGHT LOOK AT SOME NEW STUDS.. ZAVATA son of phone trick $7500, CACTUS RIDGE son of hennessy approx $7500, BOSTON HARBOR, ORIENTATE, EL CORREADOR, DISTORTED HUMOR, ELUSIVE QUALITY, NORTHERN AFLEET, ..IDONT HAVE A REGISTRY BUT THE TREND SEEMS TO BE LOOKING FOR GOOD MILERS....I REALLY LIKE HENNESSY BECAUSE IF THEY'RE NOT GREAT ON DIRT, THEY STILL MAY LOVE TURF... CANT REMEMBER HIS FEE, SOME OF THE MIGHT BE SLIGHTLY OVER WHAT YOU WANNA PAY....

[deltasports]

YOU MIGHT LOOK AT SOME NEW STUDS.. ZAVATA son of phone trick $7500, CACTUS RIDGE son of hennessy approx $7500, BOSTON HARBOR, ORIENTATE, EL CORREADOR, DISTORTED HUMOR, ELUSIVE QUALITY, NORTHERN AFLEET, ..IDONT HAVE A REGISTRY BUT THE TREND SEEMS TO BE LOOKING FOR GOOD MILERS....I REALLY LIKE HENNESSY BECAUSE IF THEY'RE NOT GREAT ON DIRT, THEY STILL MAY LOVE TURF... CANT REMEMBER HIS FEE, SOME OF THE MIGHT BE SLIGHTLY OVER WHAT YOU WANNA PAY....

orientate=20k el corredor=30k elusive quality=100k
distorted humor=150k northern afleet=20k
BOSTON HARBOR IN 2001 WAS 25K BUT TO MY MEMORY I BELIEVE HE PASSED AWAY

[deltasports]

YOU MIGHT LOOK AT SOME NEW STUDS.. ZAVATA son of phone trick $7500, CACTUS RIDGE son of hennessy approx $7500, BOSTON HARBOR, ORIENTATE, EL CORREADOR, DISTORTED HUMOR, ELUSIVE QUALITY, NORTHERN AFLEET, ..IDONT HAVE A REGISTRY BUT THE TREND SEEMS TO BE LOOKING FOR GOOD MILERS....I REALLY LIKE HENNESSY BECAUSE IF THEY'RE NOT GREAT ON DIRT, THEY STILL MAY LOVE TURF... CANT REMEMBER HIS FEE, SOME OF THE MIGHT BE SLIGHTLY OVER WHAT YOU WANNA PAY....

FYI HENNESSY> HIS STUD FEE IS $60,000 USD

[Mister Sanderson]

thanks.. i haven't had a stallion directory in a few years... i knew elusive quality and distorted humor had gone up, just not that far... a derby winner will do wonders for a stud fee, huh... who would you suggest ?? for this level..

[WitchDoctor]

Boston Harbor was sold to Japan.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/search/searchdetail.asp?RecordNo=16804&Section=1

[horsepunk]

the Giants' Causeway breeding to Priceless Quality is a good one, Mr. Prospector line mares are successful with G.C.. The Mineshaft breeding includes Mr. P and Seattle Slew. This cross is bound to give you a good looking individual and probably a race horse. Lane's End knows stallions and for marketablity, Mineshaft should fetch a fair dollar. Florida has some nice stallions, but to get in the BIG leagues as a seller, go for the hot young stallions, Mineshaft, Forest Camp, El Corredor etc. Go for it STeve.

[deltasports]

Boston Harbor was sold to Japan.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/search/searchdetail.asp?RecordNo=16804&Section=1


WELL,TO ME, THATS LIKE BEING PASSED AWAY

[deltasports]

thanks.. i haven't had a stallion directory in a few years... i knew elusive quality and distorted humor had gone up, just not that far... a derby winner will do wonders for a stud fee, huh... who would you suggest ?? for this level..


I AM HIGH ON "RED BULLET" STANDING IN FLORIDA $30

HIS BABIES LOOK GREAT

[horsesinger]

As many who know me personally also know that Lauren and I have been friends for many years. It was Lauren who guided me to the Elusive Quality filly, and Lauren who made the connections for me to get to Giants Causeway.

The foal will have her name on the breeding certificate along with ours.

Steve

TW
I'd like to see a thread called "How I Got Started" and let members post on that. You could even publish a book with it, I'll bet!

[slab61]

giants causeway is a great sire and will have a lot of success in the years to come. it won't be long until he's a sire of a kentucky derby winner

[Steve]

OH YEAH....

Steve

[ken]

Any comment GC going to private stud fee?

[Nijinsky]

I agree about GC's potential as a sire.....and I can't help thinking that if Chris McCarron had ridden him in the BC Classic, his stud fee would always have been a good deal higher!
When I think Giant's Causeway I start mumbling to myself incoherently....can't forget the 40-1 futures tickets I tore up that day...
Cost me thousands $) $) $) ..........
Oh well! It's all good.....

[notrapmit]

I have interest in a new two year old by Giants Causeway out of Tomorrows Sunshine named Gridiron. Bought at fagson-tipton sale. Breezed furlong in 10 flat clocked at 32.3 for three at the sale. Got me pumped again as i'm sure Steve must be. Best of luck Steve.

[mister zesterhouse]

I have interest in a new two year old by Giants Causeway out of Tomorrows Sunshine named Gridiron. Bought at fagson-tipton sale. Breezed furlong in 10 flat clocked at 32.3 for three at the sale. Got me pumped again as i'm sure Steve must be. Best of luck Steve.


who will be training?>

[notrapmit]

who will be training?> terronova in NY

[mister zesterhouse]

i like terranova, underrated. small stable=more attention

[Mister Sanderson]

i like terranova, underrated. small stable=more attention
if he backs out on you go for jerry joe greenwell

[mister zesterhouse]

stevie larissle

[Mister Sanderson]

stevie larissle
or ron bosarge

[Mister Stigg]

or ron bosarge
or Mack Burton, Texas Ranger!

[burningroma]

New to the board and this might be off topic. Giant's Causeway / Tiznow showdown in the Breeder's Cup was one of the best races I have ever seen.

However, when I see one of GC's offspring racing, I usually stay clear. I have been burned enough times early on in his career at stud.

[nashua]

Could be another Breeders Classic showdown this year. Heatseeker (Giant's Causeway) vs. Da' Tara (Tiznow). Tiznow has two stakes runners saturday at Churchill, Tiz Now Tiz Then and Tizdejavu.

[burningroma]

That would be interesting but it did not dawn on me.a:
I was somewhat caught up in the hype of a B.B. and Curlin showdown prior to the Belmont.

IMO, there has been no (or very little) offspring close to the caliber of Giant's Causeway.

For tomorrow my trifecta box will be:

Sam P.
Einstein
Grasshopper
Curlin

Not in any specific order and depending on the odds, I could include Brass Hat if there is a scratch.

[Pedigreeman]

This was written in 1978. I thought it could relate to Giant Causeway.
anyway lets discuss.tu?

"I would like to mention a law which would probably explain why super-horses like Citation and Secretariat need not do as well at stud as expected. Galton’s Law of Regression states that average parents tend to produce average offspring; minus parents tends to produce minus offspring; plus parents tend to produce plus offspring; and extreme parents tend to produce offspring which are less endowed than their parents. Draw from this rule whatever you wish. It seems to be a law of nature, something akin to a phenomenon which tends to bring any hiatus back into place . . . something which Tennyson called ‘compensation.” Or does it have anything to do with burnt out” genes? Tesio, you know, said something about a breed reaching a peak, then another taking over. Is that what happened to Citation? Will it also happen to Secretariat?
At the time of this writing I have just read of one of Secretariat’s offsprings winning the richest two-year old race in England. He is called Dactylographer and great things are expected of him next year in the classics. Then also Maurice Zilber has publicly stated that his big hope for these races next year is another Secretariat colt called Canadian Bound. Another two-year old, a filly by Secretariat, called Feuille d’Erable is showing great promise here in Canada. I can only say good luck to all of them, and that perhaps I am wrong; it certainly looks that way now, doesn’t it? But should I be dishonest with myself and change my opinion now?"

[Mister Sanderson]

That would be interesting but it did not dawn on me.a:
I was somewhat caught up in the hype of a B.B. and Curlin showdown prior to the Belmont.

IMO, there has been no (or very little) offspring close to the caliber of Giant's Causeway.

For tomorrow my trifecta box will be:

Sam P.
Einstein
Grasshopper
Curlin

Not in any specific order and depending on the odds, I could include Brass Hat if there is a scratch.
I spent a little time around Sam P. a few years ago. The people around the barn seemed to think he had the makeup to be this kind, but he really has never put it together on the track. I think he is a bit short on natural ability, even that he was allowed to set a slow pace at CD for his latest alw win. Which I believe he was really 3rd best, but he got clear on a :49 and held on.

[mop38]

I was reading Tesio's book, Pedigreeman.

He is considered a genius for breeding two top stallions that made their mark on the breed, Ribot and Nearco.

Everyone knows that genetics is still highly dicey, so I can't place much stock in "Galton's Law".

A perfect example can be seen in humans today, where many bright people come from humble backgrounds, and many well educated don't quite make the grade.

The racehorse today is generally one that has similar so-called good breeding as do much of it's peers.

I mean, you will find Secretariat or Seattle Slew in just about every horse now running.

Perhaps the breed is fully exhausted and in dire need of new blood, even inferior blood. (Now that's a challenging statement I just made...but hear me out).

A good ten years back, I had a Gainsway catalog of horses going at auction. I was amazed at how similarly bred every single horse was.

Some of the great standouts from decades past came from humble backgrounds. "Old Bob Bowers" was a nobody,but sired "John Henry" who was almost human-like in smartness.

That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.

[Mister Sanderson]

I was reading Tesio's book, Pedigreeman.

He is considered a genius for breeding two top stallions that made their mark on the breed, Ribot and Nearco.

Everyone knows that genetics is still highly dicey, so I can't place much stock in "Galton's Law".

A perfect example can be seen in humans today, where many bright people come from humble backgrounds, and many well educated don't quite make the grade.

The racehorse today is generally one that has similar so-called good breeding as do much of it's peers.

I mean, you will find Secretariat or Seattle Slew in just about every horse now running.

Perhaps the breed is fully exhausted and in dire need of new blood, even inferior blood. (Now that's a challenging statement I just made...but hear me out).

A good ten years back, I had a Gainsway catalog of horses going at auction. I was amazed at how similarly bred every single horse was.

Some of the great standouts from decades past came from humble backgrounds. "Old Bob Bowers" was a nobody,but sired "John Henry" who was almost human-like in smartness.

That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.
so are you saying that the semi-popular opinion that secretariat was a flop as a sire is bogus? or is this just addressing him as a sire of sires or broodmare sire? im curious, maybe im misunderstanding.

also, if in fact the breed is perhaps "fully exhausted," then what is the solution in your opinion?

[mop38]

Your two part question is most intgrigueing, and I'm willing to give it a shot.

Secreatariat can't compare to Seattle Slew in the breeding shed, but when you examine his pedigree, something unusual appears. Same can be said of Seattle Slew.

Secreatariat was one of seventeen from "Something Royal". The precursor was a decent runner that I remember well back in my days in New York..."Serian Sea". He did very well in New York. Oddly enough, the one most close to Secretariat was "The Bride", who had a striking similar appearance but couldn't outrun a fat man. I don't even know if she became a broodmare, although I have pedigree books of dams in North America that go back to the 1930's. (Need to look her up).

By all accounts, Secretariat is rated "Chef de Race", meaning his superiority is practically unparalled.

Now, with Seattle Slew, some flaws showed up. The ill fated "Slewpy" (I hope I have the right one here), died of a massive heart attack during a race. I discussed this with Mark Reid, now a top bloodstock agent, and he believes there is a flaw in Seattle Slew breeding, which he's had the misfortune to see with a horse he trained. Otherwise, his breeding potential was much greater than Secretariat, having sired some outstanding sires like "Slew O' Gold".

And now the second part of your question.....

I once discussed the breeding of thoroughbreds with another owner with my trainer. He said some horses with mixes of Arabian were being passed off as pure Arabians, which I doubt. That should make an Arabian improve his speed, but in reality, it would be difficult to disguise such an animal.

Now, not seeing past records being broken readily anymore, it can be argued that the breed hasn't improved itself much in the last 30 some odd years.

Therefore, any mix with another breed might get you some better stamina which is much desired today.

I do know that in Ireland, they have better stamina bred racehorses, and they generally do well in turf races against domestic breds.

Quite enough I delved in so far, but let me make the point clear...the breed needs something new and different now, and the jockey club who keeps all the records would need to examine the situation.

Otherwise, it's all about fixing them up as best you could, get a few races out of them, then send them "away".

Or, for the lucky ones, you get ooh's and aah's from stallion prospects that haven't proved a d+mned thing on the track.

[deltasports]

DID YOU KNOW>>>

SLEW OF GOLD RAN 2ND TWO TIMES AT TAMPA BAY DOWNS..DID YOU KNOW

SECRETARIATS MOTHER (SOMETHINGROYAL) WAS 18 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE FOALED HIM..DID YOU KNOW


MARK REID (good man) TRAINED "MR NICKERSON" WHO BROKE DOWN & WAS DESTROYED IN "THE BREEDERS CUP SPRINT" DID YOU KNOW gah;

[Mister Sanderson]

Your two part question is most intgrigueing, and I'm willing to give it a shot.

Secreatariat can't compare to Seattle Slew in the breeding shed, but when you examine his pedigree, something unusual appears. Same can be said of Seattle Slew.

Secreatariat was one of seventeen from "Something Royal". The precursor was a decent runner that I remember well back in my days in New York..."Serian Sea". He did very well in New York. Oddly enough, the one most close to Secretariat was "The Bride", who had a striking similar appearance but couldn't outrun a fat man. I don't even know if she became a broodmare, although I have pedigree books of dams in North America that go back to the 1930's. (Need to look her up).

By all accounts, Secretariat is rated "Chef de Race", meaning his superiority is practically unparalled.

Now, with Seattle Slew, some flaws showed up. The ill fated "Slewpy" (I hope I have the right one here), died of a massive heart attack during a race. I discussed this with Mark Reid, now a top bloodstock agent, and he believes there is a flaw in Seattle Slew breeding, which he's had the misfortune to see with a horse he trained. Otherwise, his breeding potential was much greater than Secretariat, having sired some outstanding sires like "Slew O' Gold".

And now the second part of your question.....

I once discussed the breeding of thoroughbreds with another owner with my trainer. He said some horses with mixes of Arabian were being passed off as pure Arabians, which I doubt. That should make an Arabian improve his speed, but in reality, it would be difficult to disguise such an animal.

Now, not seeing past records being broken readily anymore, it can be argued that the breed hasn't improved itself much in the last 30 some odd years.

Therefore, any mix with another breed might get you some better stamina which is much desired today.

I do know that in Ireland, they have better stamina bred racehorses, and they generally do well in turf races against domestic breds.

Quite enough I delved in so far, but let me make the point clear...the breed needs something new and different now, and the jockey club who keeps all the records would need to examine the situation.

Otherwise, it's all about fixing them up as best you could, get a few races out of them, then send them "away".

Or, for the lucky ones, you get ooh's and aah's from stallion prospects that haven't proved a d+mned thing on the track.
good stuff.
a. flaw - what flaw? how repetitive? %?
b. ireland? - not the rest of europe? how about the sheiks, how is their program? how about the Japanese and their idea of breeding? sunday silence may be a comparison to secretariat northern dancer years from now... seems all top sires are sired by sunday silence

[mop38]

Flaws....

Usually this word is used in determining the value of diamonds. The more flaws, the less valuable.

In breeding, as with humans, there are incidences of various diseases in certain families, so genetically, you can consider them flaws.

If a thoroughbred dies suddenly of a heart attack, and then you see other similar incidences that can be traced to a certain stallion line, then obviously you can deduce that there is some genetic defect.

With Mark Reid, I believe the horse was named "Mr. Nickerson", who suffered a heart attack during a major race.

None of what I said can be proved beyond a doubt, and can be considered supposition.

Therefore, goes back to what I previously said, the subject of genetics is dicey.

I used to pay close attention to breeding when deciding which horse to bet. I seldom look at that anymore.

Veterinarians have many tools to use to compensate for deficiencies. Ask any owner what a vet can charge for certain proceedures. It's alarming.

I haven't a clue as to the value of what the Arabs are breeding based on their enormous intake of oil revenue. The Japanese seem to have a few solid stallions, like A.P. Indy, which they must have paid dearly for.

Ocassionally, you see some good English breds, French breds or even South American breds, who can compete against decent American runners.

I didn't intend to belabor the subject which is still in it's infancy.

For all we know, some day they will alter our genetic makeup to achieve higher potential in humans. We are just scratching the surface now.

[Mister Sanderson]

Flaws....

Usually this word is used in determining the value of diamonds. The more flaws, the less valuable.

In breeding, as with humans, there are incidences of various diseases in certain families, so genetically, you can consider them flaws.

If a thoroughbred dies suddenly of a heart attack, and then you see other similar incidences that can be traced to a certain stallion line, then obviously you can deduce that there is some genetic defect.

With Mark Reid, I believe the horse was named "Mr. Nickerson", who suffered a heart attack during a major race.

None of what I said can be proved beyond a doubt, and can be considered supposition.

Therefore, goes back to what I previously said, the subject of genetics is dicey.

I used to pay close attention to breeding when deciding which horse to bet. I seldom look at that anymore.

Veterinarians have many tools to use to compensate for deficiencies. Ask any owner what a vet can charge for certain proceedures. It's alarming.

I haven't a clue as to the value of what the Arabs are breeding based on their enormous intake of oil revenue. The Japanese seem to have a few solid stallions, like A.P. Indy, which they must have paid dearly for.

Ocassionally, you see some good English breds, French breds or even South American breds, who can compete against decent American runners.

I didn't intend to belabor the subject which is still in it's infancy.

For all we know, some day they will alter our genetic makeup to achieve higher potential in humans. We are just scratching the surface now.
im trying to get serena williams to have my kids as we speak... i just signed her guestbook. andre agassi and steffi graf's kid has a shot

[mop38]

Flaws....

Usually this word is used in determining the value of diamonds. The more flaws, the less valuable.

In breeding, as with humans, there are incidences of various diseases in certain families, so genetically, you can consider them flaws.

If a thoroughbred dies suddenly of a heart attack, and then you see other similar incidences that can be traced to a certain stallion line, then obviously you can deduce that there is some genetic defect.

With Mark Reid, I believe the horse was named "Mr. Nickerson", who suffered a heart attack during a major race. I just checked, and I was mistaken on the horse's name who died suddenly in a stake race. It wasn't Slewpy, it was Swale.

None of what I said can be proved beyond a doubt, and can be considered supposition.

Therefore, goes back to what I previously said, the subject of genetics is dicey.

I used to pay close attention to breeding when deciding which horse to bet. I seldom look at that anymore.

Veterinarians have many tools to use to compensate for deficiencies. Ask any owner what a vet can charge for certain proceedures. It's alarming.

I haven't a clue as to the value of what the Arabs are breeding based on their enormous intake of oil revenue. The Japanese seem to have a few solid stallions, like A.P. Indy, which they must have paid dearly for.

Ocassionally, you see some good English breds, French breds or even South American breds, who can compete against decent American runners.

I didn't intend to belabor the subject which is still in it's infancy.

For all we know, some day they will alter our genetic makeup to achieve higher potential in humans. We are just scratching the surface now.

[mop38]

Serena? Why not Venus? Hah!

[mop38]

Correction (again)...Swale died while having a bath. Not during a race.

[deltasports]

Perhaps the breed is fully exhausted and in dire need of new blood, even inferior blood. (Now that's a challenging statement I just made...but hear me out). A good ten years back, I had a Gainsway catalog of horses going at auction. I was amazed at how similarly bred every single horse was.
================================================== =======
Some of the great standouts from decades past came from humble backgrounds. "Old Bob Bowers" was a nobody,but sired "John Henry" who was almost human-like in smartness.

That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.
================================================== =======
SO>>> OLD BOB WAS A NOBODY...AS I SAID A FEW TIMES BEFORE ON THIS SITE: I WISH PEOPLE WOULD KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALkING ABOUT BEFORE THEY STEP IN A HOLE ..EXAMPLE> "OLD BOB BOWERS"WAS A REAL SOMEBODY..HE STARTED 30 TIMES & WAS 50% 123 IN THE MONEY AS 6-3-6
HE WON THE TANFORAN HANDICAP AT BAY MEADOWS & EQUALLED THE WORLD RECORD FOR 1:1/8 MILE IN 1:46 2/5..THAT WAS AS A 5 YR OLD IN 1968. AS mop38 says he was a nobody... HIS FATHER>"PRINCE BLESSED" HAD A RECORD OF 35> 8-6-4 ..YEAH>HE WAS ONLY 50% ON THE BOARD...
HE WON THE HOLLYWOOD GOLD CUP & THE AMERICAN HANDICAP.HE WAS ALSO 2ND IN THE SANTA ANITA MATURITY, THE SAN JUAN CAPISTRANO 1:1/2
ALSO 3RD IN THE SUNSET H, ARLINGTON H, SAN FERNANDO STAKES &
THE "SAN LUIS REY" HANDICAP WHEN ALL THOSE WERE CONSIDERED G1 RACES BY TODAYS STANDARDS. HIS GRANDFATHER WAS "PRINCEQUILLO".I KNOW THAT TO ALOT OF GUYS ON HERE DONT KNOW WHO HE WAS.I WILL TELL U>HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST STALLIONS EVER TO SET FOOT..
NOW OLE BOB (HIS MOTHER'S) SIDE WASNT TOO SHABBY..SHE BEING by
"BULL LEA" THEN COMES "BULL DOG" THEN "TEDDY"& UNDERNEATH COMES "BLUE LARKSPUR"..NOW WE OLD CRONIES AS THE bright one REFERED TO ME & SOME OF THE OTHER FELLOWS THAT ARE OLDER THAN THE brightone..>>>WHEN WE OR ME SEE THAT KIND OF BREEDING I SAY HE OR SHE IS BRED UP THE *** OR THE RIGHT WAY TO SAY IT HE OR SHE IS
"BRED IN THE PURPLE"..IT JUST DOESNT GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS..NOW THAT I HAVE EXPLAINED THE EXACT RECORD OF "OLD BOB BOWERS" & HIS PARENTS!!I THINK HE IS A REAL SOMEBODY..DONT YOU ALL THINK SO TOO???
AND BY THE WAY..BACK IN 1978 I HAD A CLAIM MADE OUT FOR HIM (JOHN HENRY) BECAUSE I KNEW WHO IN THE HELL HE WAS..gah; gah; gah; tro( tro(

[mop38]

My apologies about "Ole Bob Bowers". I must have been reiterating what the general public says rather than referring to my book on "John Henry".

My do I wish these kinds of horses were around today.

Is it "safe" to say that "John Henry" didn't blossom until they put him on turf?

[deltasports]

THATS RIGHT!!!!
THE NEXT TIME OUT,HE WENT IN A 1 MILE TURF FOR $35 CLAIMING & WON OFF BY 14 LENGTHS & THAT WAS THE START OF THE FAMOUS "JOHN HENRY"tro(

[Pedigreeman]

It was difficult for a mare to suit Ole Bob Bowers, it does not seem to have worried John Henry nor his dam very much.
To recap on his dam, we need to recall that she was close inbred herself (1 x 3) intricately to Double Jay, (the best two year old of his year).

This a quote from John Clarke

"It took me more than a decade to find out who cut John Henry, the two-time Horse of the Year. While he was in my office one day,asked Dr. Alex Harthill in jest “Is it true you gelded John Henry?” “Yes,” he replied defendsively, “and he needed it worse than any horse I've ever seen. He was a holy terror in his stall—would eat you alive, walk around his stall on his hind legs like a dog, and hang his front legs over his stall screen. Do every common thing he could to threaten you or hurt you. You’d never have heard of him if he hadn’t been gelded.”

A good racer should be able to pass it on. Those who fail to do so should be studied to see if their ability was real or just mistakenly apparent amongst mediocre competition. However, weak sires are generally bad or indifferent racers. It is fairly unusual for a good racer not to get good colts, and only sire fillies.<!-- / message -->

[deltasports]

DOC HARTHILL WAS THE BEST VET WALKING THAT I EVER SAW.$) $) $) hh)

[Pedigreeman]

"When I read about the modern tendency towards speed while sidelining soundness,
the name of Round Table (and Princequillo) comes immediately to mind. I know of a breeder trying
to keep this strain alive, and believe me, always seems like an uphill battle, regardless relative
modest achievements.

The merits of Round Table are there to be taken into account, without having to experiment with
new bloodlines from other breeds. Some Nasrullah's are also there waiting to be "discovered".
The same rule with the Ribots.

But there is a simple way to reverse today's tendency. Let's program more races beyond 10 furlongs
on a regular basis for sophomore runners and older equines and let's reverse the tendency initiated
by the "Dancers" and "Turn-To's". After all, if you examine their very own pedigrees you will note the
presence of sound sources too -- albeit, on more remote echelons.

I remember quite vividly during the 1960's a superb breeder I knew who always sharply avoided descendants from Native Dancer.
But those were the days when Raise A Native, Kauai King, Dancer's Image and Majestic Prince began winning big,
eventually influencing the breed on a worldwide basis (Raise A Native, Northern Dancer). But this also coincided with the
increase of shorter distances, and eventually, this breeder soon fell into oblivion and also got exhausted of running his
breeding operation as a one-man-venture (because also he was a hands-on breeder on really everything!).
He fell into oblivion, not because he wasn't achieving racing success with his Nasrullahs, Dark Stars, Bull Dogs and Ribots, but because the increase
emphasis on shorter distances, which favored precocity, made everything more difficult for his homebred juveniles, who almost always
ended up becoming decent sophomores. I remember that during those years I never knew or witness a single breakdown of any of his horses.

But then, when the 1970's began, the aforementioned conditions forced him to abandom his longtime successful breeding program, and he then chose
to buy juveniles, which proved an error. But life is life and he was into his mid 70's and tired of his slow coming breeding achievements and didn't want to fall for the
Native Dancers. But since the breed was so inclined to the Native Dancers and he was accustomed of winning stakes during the year, he eventually had to
opt for the Northen Dancers nicks. The number of injuries and tragic losses increased and his running operation suffered a lot. Hmmm, what
a "coincidence"! But he still retained certain success with the very few he bred (his breeding program last ran via the maternal lineage of Canadian stakes
winner, Blodeinamotel). Eventually, as we all know, the Raise A Natives and Northern Dancer won the race for supremacy. But why?: because the shorter distances
paved the way for that paradigm, thanks to the initial impulse given by the Native Dancer/Northern Dancers.

In synthesis, if we want to reverse this tendency we have to re-emphasize on establishing big races and programs towards soundness and let time evolve.

Imagine how grave this problem is that the majority of horses who run in these days Derbies, Belmonts, and even Preaknesses have never run those distances before
and will never compete again on these distances."
bf.

[mop38]

The previous three posts present sound argument as to why three year olds have difficulty putting together a string of three long races together during a five week time period.

Breeding may be a factor, given that they seem to retire early or run sprints thereafter.

With Big Brown, he seemed uneasy early in the Belmont.

Other contributing factors may have been at play, but the inclination seems to point in the direction that he wanted a shorter race.

Just speculation...just speculating.