Bandwagon Jumpers

[ziadierulestampa]

Captain Kirk Ziadie has gone 0 for 5 over 2 days at Tampa,and all the boys who have been making a second living at the windows off of him are in a
state of panic.
Calm down fellas,SOUTH KEY#4 in the 9th,will make everything right again.
Lets worry about the Zwiesler horse#8,Full Flavor.
Trainer Joan Scott is also on a 5 race losing streak(allbeit 3 were in stakes races)but she has won at a 25% clip over the past 3 years,and can get the
money in the 10th race,with #8 CHANDELLE NO 5,weak rider will help price.
Thats the back half of the Pick 4.
In the 11th race,Tim Hills ships up from South Florida with #11 BLUFFERS BID,
had some gate problems last time,picks up the magical Lezcano,and finds a
field just begging to be beaten.
Outside Post Late Double 8-11

Good Luck and Good Racing
ZRT

[Chuck]

Some call it jumping on and off the bandwagon. I prefer to think of it as riding the pendulum and I have made a decent living do it with short term trainer trends. If pendulum riders have made a small fortune on Zadie this meet, 0-5 isn't that big of a deal. That was very correctly stated, ZRT. Everyone experiences hot and cold streaks but one factor to consider is HOW the short streaks are "earned." What bothered me yesterday was how those 0-fers were running. Unless my eyes deceived me the ten horse on the turf looked more like a cloud of grey dust being dragged along, then a Zadie horse. And it went from bad to worse with horses jogging over the line last. Now, I am WAY too old and experienced to believe the Zadie machine has burnt out a bearing....obviously this is just a swing of the pendulum. What is going to make me step back one click and MISS the first winner back is the way in which those horses performed. If I were cynical I'd say they performed consistent with their REAL ability, meaning they struggled mighty hard when placed in races that they looked like they fit based on their recent over-performance races. When I handicap hot trainers I add 5-6 lengths on every horse they run AFTER I make a realistic assessment of how good that horse actually is. So while I agree that 0-5 is silly to start a panic....something other than "dumb-luck" is at the base of THAT particular 0-5. I am not suggesting anything nefarious..sometimes a mucus causing microbe runs down a shed and you don't spot it through typcial symptoms until scoping horses after a race. Who knows.....but I am sure that I am going to take one baby step backward and ride the pendulum in the reverse direction a bit. Can't wait to get the first BUY signal though, even though it will mean missing cashing that one bet back. It's been a great run over the last few weeks. Let's call this a "normal" correction which DEFINITELY won't last very long. Solid winning people always find a way to the cheese.

[ziadierulestampa]

CHUCK,
YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A VERY ASTUTE HORSEPLAYER,AND I GREATLY RESPECT YOUR OPINIONS.
PLEASE,PLEASE,
POST MORE OFTEN.
IT IS HANDICAPPERS LIKE YOURSELF THAT "TW" NEEDS MORE OF.
I HAVE LONG AGO ADMITTED,I AM "MOTO" MASTER of the OBVIOUS,BUT SO
WHAT,IF IT CAN HELP JUST ONE MEMBER MAKE SOME MONEY.
BEST OF LUCK TO YOU.

[Rudy]

ZRT and I spoke yesterday of our concern with the lack of posts and think there are many who have something to say or add to the forums..said to say but I have spoken to a few who are afraid to speak...how sad... a loss to all,,,Regarding the current slump or slumps of trainers....there seem to be cycles of highs and lows in handicapping. As gamblers this often happens,maybe you come in a different door to the track,or use a different pen..to try and change your luck..some of us can be quite superstitious.The sample 0f 0-5 is nothing to worry about for it is small sample. Unless the wins were coming with "juice" then there will be a problem.As discovered a few weeks ago..... Bill Mott had 5 wins yesterday and perhaps next week he will not hit the board . It is over the course of time that wins and loses seperate the good trainers from the bad......

[Eifel]

Maybe it's too early to say kirk is in slump, but it's hard to ignore just how bad his horses ran yesterday. He also had one at gulfstream the other day that didn't perform very well. I also wonder why he hasn't been at Tampa to sattle his horses? But I think it's too soon to jump of the bandwagon, so I'll give him another chance today with South Key. I agree with ZRT that Zwiesler's horse also looks good , but for a price I'll throw Tamargo's horse into the exotics. Castanon happens to be riding the Tamargo horse, he used to be money in the bank at Tampa (especially on the grass) now he just doesn't get the results he used to. Just can't figure out what happened to him. But Ziade and Castanon are too good to stay in slumps too long, so I'll use them both today and see if they can find their old form. It's real hard to pick the perfect time to give up on a good trainer or Jockey, in this case I'll wait a little longer.

[satisfyingwager]

I would like to weigh in on this.

If you look at each of Ziadie's horses in this "0 - 5" discussion you can see that each one had it's own issues.

Pitch A Penny (Friday), this horse needs a pace to run at. The horse is a one run horse. There was not alot of dedicated speed in the race which dictated that the horse had to be close to the pace. Instead of being able to make one run, he had to try to run in a sustained manner - not its style - it got tired and ran 2nd.

King Dreamer (Saturday), he was coming off of a career best - which was in the slop. In order for him to have won the race he would have had to move forward. He did not. The horse that won race was a winner at the top of the stretch and ran out of the TV.

Olmstead (Saturday), He was moving up in class and making a surface change.

Jewels and Gems (Saturday), Another one coming off of three career best efforts. Plus, that field was a bunch of monsters. The horse that won was a previous stakes winner. The horse that ran second was previously undefeated on the dirt. Wiining the UAE Oaks, a 250K race.

Shin Feign (Saturday), on the comments for the previous race it said "bore out badly" - I rarely bet horses with this line. When horses bear out it usually means that they are sore or have some other ailment.

You can make as many generalizations that you want. In this game you have to at some point. I don't think that Ziadie is in a slump - you have to look at each particular situation and each horse to see what the circumstances are.

The problem that many people who bet Tampa have is that they think Ziadie is a super human trainer. He is the best at Tampa - and he can get horses to do what many other trainers can't. I have the utmost respect for him. But, I think that that betting public just sees his name and expects them to win every time - and make him the favorite every time. He wins 35% of the time. That means he loses 65% of the time. The only thing you know is that at Tampa, he will be overbet 100% of the time.

SW

[ken]

Sounds like you are saying in most of the 5 races there was a better horse in the race; What does that mean as far as the race placement? Is it dumb luck or are they running slightly over their heads? Is the trainer pressing the purse level too much?
Maybe these races are the closest one available for the horse to run at the right time.

[satisfyingwager]

Sounds like you are saying in most of the 5 races there was a better horse in the race; What does that mean as far as the race placement? Is it dumb luck or are they running slightly over their heads? Is the trainer pressing the purse level too much?
Maybe these races are the closest one available for the horse to run at the right time.


Not saying that at all. The only one moving up in class was one of them on the turf. People at Tampa and on this board especially expect everything Ziadie sends out to win or at least to hit the board. I'm just saying don't jump to conclusions or make any hasty generalizations.

Even though the horses are favored in every race doesn't mean that they are going to win every race.

[ziadierulestampa]

I would like to weigh in on this.

If you look at each of Ziadie's horses in this "0 - 5" discussion you can see that each one had it's own issues.

Pitch A Penny (Friday), this horse needs a pace to run at. The horse is a one run horse. There was not alot of dedicated speed in the race which dictated that the horse had to be close to the pace. Instead of being able to make one run, he had to try to run in a sustained manner - not its style - it got tired and ran 2nd.

King Dreamer (Saturday), he was coming off of a career best - which was in the slop. In order for him to have won the race he would have had to move forward. He did not. The horse that won race was a winner at the top of the stretch and ran out of the TV.

Olmstead (Saturday), He was moving up in class and making a surface change.

Jewels and Gems (Saturday), Another one coming off of three career best efforts. Plus, that field was a bunch of monsters. The horse that won was a previous stakes winner. The horse that ran second was previously undefeated on the dirt. Wiining the UAE Oaks, a 250K race.

Shin Feign (Saturday), on the comments for the previous race it said "bore out badly" - I rarely bet horses with this line. When horses bear out it usually means that they are sore or have some other ailment.

You can make as many generalizations that you want. In this game you have to at some point. I don't think that Ziadie is in a slump - you have to look at each particular situation and each horse to see what the circumstances are.

The problem that many people who bet Tampa have is that they think Ziadie is a super human trainer. He is the best at Tampa - and he can get horses to do what many other trainers can't. I have the utmost respect for him. But, I think that that betting public just sees his name and expects them to win every time - and make him the favorite every time. He wins 35% of the time. That means he loses 65% of the time. The only thing you know is that at Tampa, he will be overbet 100% of the time.

SW
KUDOS,ON SOME BRILLIANT OBSERVATIONS AND EVALUATIONS.!
I,WHO AS EVERYBODY KNOWS,STEERS THE ZIADIE BANDWAGON ON THIS
WEB-SITE,DID NOT POST ANYTHING REGARDING THOSE 4 HORSES SATURDAY,
MOSTLY FOR THE REASONS YOU HAVE GIVEN.
AS YOU SAID,ZIADIE WINS WITH 35% OF HIS RUNNERS,SO YOU HAVE TO
PICK YOUR SPOTS WHERE YOU THINK THE LOSING 65% IS GOING TO COME
FROM,AND IT IS GOING TO COME,SO WITH 5 LOSERS IN A ROW,A SCRATCH
ON SUNDAY,HE CAN BEGIN A NEW ATTACK ON THESE TAMPA MIDGETS.
PLEASE POST MORE OFTEN,YOU ARE ASTUTE AND SHARP.
GOOD LUCK
ZRT

[offstride]

What it really comes down to is you cant
milkshake a horse every start it burns them out.

[ziadierulestampa]

What it really comes down to is you cant
milkshake a horse every start it burns them out.
APPARENTLY WE HAVE A VET IN OUR MEMBERSHIP.

[theknightsky]

What it really comes down to is you cant
milkshake a horse every start it burns them out.


Offstride ever think of getting a job at baskin robbins you know way to much about the subject.

[ken]

You conclusion sounds reasonable but I could not find any references online to that. Can you please provide a source?

[satisfyingwager]

What it really comes down to is you cant
milkshake a horse every start it burns them out.

This is the kind of insight we needed.

[ziadierulestampa]

Some call it jumping on and off the bandwagon. I prefer to think of it as riding the pendulum and I have made a decent living do it with short term trainer trends. If pendulum riders have made a small fortune on Zadie this meet, 0-5 isn't that big of a deal. That was very correctly stated, ZRT. Everyone experiences hot and cold streaks but one factor to consider is HOW the short streaks are "earned." What bothered me yesterday was how those 0-fers were running. Unless my eyes deceived me the ten horse on the turf looked more like a cloud of grey dust being dragged along, then a Zadie horse. And it went from bad to worse with horses jogging over the line last. Now, I am WAY too old and experienced to believe the Zadie machine has burnt out a bearing....obviously this is just a swing of the pendulum. What is going to make me step back one click and MISS the first winner back is the way in which those horses performed. If I were cynical I'd say they performed consistent with their REAL ability, meaning they struggled mighty hard when placed in races that they looked like they fit based on their recent over-performance races. When I handicap hot trainers I add 5-6 lengths on every horse they run AFTER I make a realistic assessment of how good that horse actually is. So while I agree that 0-5 is silly to start a panic....something other than "dumb-luck" is at the base of THAT particular 0-5. I am not suggesting anything nefarious..sometimes a mucus causing microbe runs down a shed and you don't spot it through typcial symptoms until scoping horses after a race. Who knows.....but I am sure that I am going to take one baby step backward and ride the pendulum in the reverse direction a bit. Can't wait to get the first BUY signal though, even though it will mean missing cashing that one bet back. It's been a great run over the last few weeks. Let's call this a "normal" correction which DEFINITELY won't last very long. Solid winning people always find a way to the cheese.
THE MINI SLUMP COMES TO AN ABRUPT HALT TUESDAY AT TAMPA.
4TH RACE#5 MONTFORD RIDGE
7TH RACE#7 WATER WALKER

[offstride]

I just might know more than you think I have trained harness
horses for about 25 years now.

[offstride]

ken if you want to know more about milkshakes
just type in milkshaking.

[satisfyingwager]

I just might know more than you think I have trained harness
horses for about 25 years now.

I thought that everything was on the up and up in the harness world.

[Chuck]

Zadie-Zen-Master.....I hope you are correct. My eyes balls will be watching the 4th; that you can bet on. While both of us can find a few reasons why this horse can get beat off the form, I think you'd agree this horse shouldn't really get beat in this spot unless being trained by someone named other than Zadie. If the horse mellows around the course, I think we both have to start considering all is not the same as it was over the last 5 weeks.

And, c'mon guys, give the Milkshake comment a little latitude. You guys who have been on from the beginning know I am a chemist AND that I have a huge background in performance chemistry. From a strict analytical standpoint....for many horses most of the time, you can buffer blood day after day till the cows come home and it is GOOD. There isn't a single professional athlete or world class amateur that I don't insist hit the baking soda and water each AM. Most "fatigue" we experience actually is due to blood acidiity levels and while we can sleep, take caffeine, etc....the best thing for anyone who gets more tired than they think they should is do a little bicarb and water DAILY. Huge amounts day after day can cause GAS and that isn't good in a delicate digestive system like a horse (or human) but the milkshake itself when used sensibly won't hurt. Interestingly, there is a group of horses that actually go backwards after a shake as they use the lactic acid for FUEL. There is a reason for that.....complex but interesting.

Really, though, I think we all know the true purpose in the shake isn't to buffer blood. Enough said! And harness guys KNOW that better than flat guys. Want to learn some real science....Zadie-master knows from personal expereince, hang out a Meadowlands for a weekend.

Now let's get that horse in the 4th around the course..or the next sound you hear will be my tears sizzling off the pavement.

[satisfyingwager]

Zadie-Zen-Master.....I hope you are correct. My eyes balls will be watching the 4th; that you can bet on. While both of us can find a few reasons why this horse can get beat off the form, I think you'd agree this horse shouldn't really get beat in this spot unless being trained by someone named other than Zadie. If the horse mellows around the course, I think we both have to start considering all is not the same as it was over the last 5 weeks.

And, c'mon guys, give the Milkshake comment a little latitude. You guys who have been on from the beginning know I am a chemist AND that I have a huge background in performance chemistry. From a strict analytical standpoint....for many horses most of the time, you can buffer blood day after day till the cows come home and it is GOOD. There isn't a single professional athlete or world class amateur that I don't insist hit the baking soda and water each AM. Most "fatigue" we experience actually is due to blood acidiity levels and while we can sleep, take caffeine, etc....the best thing for anyone who gets more tired than they think they should is do a little bicarb and water DAILY. Huge amounts day after day can cause GAS and that isn't good in a delicate digestive system like a horse (or human) but the milkshake itself when used sensibly won't hurt. Interestingly, there is a group of horses that actually go backwards after a shake as they use the lactic acid for FUEL. There is a reason for that.....complex but interesting.

Really, though, I think we all know the true purpose in the shake isn't to buffer blood. Enough said! And harness guys KNOW that better than flat guys. Want to learn some real science....Zadie-master knows from personal expereince, hang out a Meadowlands for a weekend.

Now let's get that horse in the 4th around the course..or the next sound you hear will be my tears sizzling off the pavement.

Well done, nice post.

The horse in the 4th looks tough. One concern I have has to do with the pace. Montford Ridge has NO speed. He will depend on a pace in order to make sure he gets to the circle. The 6 and the 9 may be the key to this. If they both go, the pace should be good enough. I think we're all counting on the horse to move forward. I think he will - how much is the question. Good luck to your selections.

[theknightsky]

if he milkshakes then why has he never had 1 positive

[offstride]

just watch these super trainers in the detention barn races
it pretty much tells the tell.

[trifecta mark]

In a paramutual environment with an onerous takeout....the winning handicapper must determine who is being overbet {underlay} and who is being underbet {overlay} among the serious contenders. It isn't all just selection. Many times you scan past performances and gather other data that leads you to the favorite. At "odds on" you might pass the race or prefer a second or third choice that may win at much longer odds IF a different scenario presents itself. The dreaded public favorite that is an underlay can be the result of a worshipped trainer/owner....a respected jockey, a recent race that is unlikely to be repeated in today's scenario or perhaps a past reputation. A true handicapper must make the decisions and structure the wagers correctly to play the upside with all this in mind. Not sure personally how anyone can say they are going to "play" a horse well before they have seen the actuals odds being presented. Winners crave obvious underlays to play against. In Tampa for example: I have hit a couple of nice tickets when owner Rich Avril has a Ziadie horse that is being bet down well below the real probability. Some just don't deserve it. {like one of the the horses mentioned on Saturday} You must just play around them. That is the nature of it. In Saratoga or Gulfstream it might be a Pletcher/JR entry that is getting too much credit. Horses win the races. Lots of things have to go right. And all the horses from any trainers barn are not created equal. best of luck to all.

[Eifel]

I would like to weigh in on this.

If you look at each of Ziadie's horses in this "0 - 5" discussion you can see that each one had it's own issues.

Pitch A Penny (Friday), this horse needs a pace to run at. The horse is a one run horse. There was not alot of dedicated speed in the race which dictated that the horse had to be close to the pace. Instead of being able to make one run, he had to try to run in a sustained manner - not its style - it got tired and ran 2nd.

King Dreamer (Saturday), he was coming off of a career best - which was in the slop. In order for him to have won the race he would have had to move forward. He did not. The horse that won race was a winner at the top of the stretch and ran out of the TV.

Olmstead (Saturday), He was moving up in class and making a surface change.

Jewels and Gems (Saturday), Another one coming off of three career best efforts. Plus, that field was a bunch of monsters. The horse that won was a previous stakes winner. The horse that ran second was previously undefeated on the dirt. Wiining the UAE Oaks, a 250K race.

Shin Feign (Saturday), on the comments for the previous race it said "bore out badly" - I rarely bet horses with this line. When horses bear out it usually means that they are sore or have some other ailment.

You can make as many generalizations that you want. In this game you have to at some point. I don't think that Ziadie is in a slump - you have to look at each particular situation and each horse to see what the circumstances are.

The problem that many people who bet Tampa have is that they think Ziadie is a super human trainer. He is the best at Tampa - and he can get horses to do what many other trainers can't. I have the utmost respect for him. But, I think that that betting public just sees his name and expects them to win every time - and make him the favorite every time. He wins 35% of the time. That means he loses 65% of the time. The only thing you know is that at Tampa, he will be overbet 100% of the time.

SWCan't wait to here why Ziade's horse didn't win today. He had a perfect trip and every chance to win but flopped at less than even money. I like Ziade but his horses are not running at their best the last few days. Like Chuck said it's probaly best to take a step back and wait till he heats up again.

[satisfyingwager]

Can't wait to here why Ziade's horse didn't win today. He had a perfect trip and every chance to win but flopped at less than even money. I like Ziade but his horses are not running at their best the last few days. Like Chuck said it's probaly best to take a step back and wait till he heats up again.

Do they have to win all the time? The horse ran a good race, and lost by a length. Lost second in a picture.

It was a credible race. If the chalk eaters continue to want to pound Ziadie's horses and complain - go ahead.

I just feel bad for the guy. Ziadie is a very nice person and one of the best young trainers in America. If he wins too much people assume that he is cheating (people on this board have accused him of all kinds of cheating). By the way, don't you think his horses get tested? If TBD threw Don Rice out, why wouldn't they toss Ziadie? When he loses, it's because he stopped cheating. You guys rip him if he's up or down and give him NO latitude.

I like to see his horses do well for his sake - because he is a good guy. That doesn't mean that I bet them. At Tampa, there will rarely be a race where you will get fair odds on his horses - the way the public overbets them. I didn't bet the horses this weekend or today. I don't chase chalk - even if they are trained by the best trainer at the track. Remember, it's the public that makes them 3-5 not the trainer. If anybody thought this horse was a mortal lock, they need to learn how to read the form.

[Steve]

If you guys will take my word for it---those of you who have never met Zadie--I will go so far as to say that he is one of the top three nicest trainers I have ever met. You would be hard pressed to not like him if you ever met him.

The professionals on this board know that Horses/Barns/Trainers cycle. It's really not much different than that of the financial markets. Not much different than life itself. There is always a balance. We seem to forget this when our money goes south. We seem to forget this a lot. Besides, blaming is the road easiest to travel when we need to cover our own short comings.

For those of you who think that everyday is an honest day with people helping others to win money then you need help. Everywhere I turn on a day to day basis I see people attempting to get an edge on everything. The investment bankers know how to pull this off on a minute to minute daily routine. Yet, people lose much more with them and somehow accept this as doing business.

Now back to Zadie. He hasn’t had a positive test for ANYTHING. People who I like a lot tell me everyday that Zadie must be cheating and now he is being careful.

Nope. This is the normal cycle that I would expect and as a handicapper-if you want to win at the races-you need to remember this natural occurrence.

Zadie is a nice person, professional, and is driven to win and so far not with ONE shred of evidence that he cheats. I will defend this trainer until evidence is uncovered or discovered that tells otherwise. I hope you agree. You would like Zadie if you ever met him and appreciate how professional he is and how hard he works to be the best.

Steve
TW

[Eifel]

Do they have to win all the time? The horse ran a good race, and lost by a length. Lost second in a picture.

It was a credible race. If the chalk eaters continue to want to pound Ziadie's horses and complain - go ahead.

I just feel bad for the guy. Ziadie is a very nice person and one of the best young trainers in America. If he wins too much people assume that he is cheating (people on this board have accused him of all kinds of cheating). By the way, don't you think his horses get tested? If TBD threw Don Rice out, why wouldn't they toss Ziadie? When he loses, it's because he stopped cheating. You guys rip him if he's up or down and give him NO latitude.

I like to see his horses do well for his sake - because he is a good guy. That doesn't mean that I bet them. At Tampa, there will rarely be a race where you will get fair odds on his horses - the way the public overbets them. I didn't bet the horses this weekend or today. I don't chase chalk - even if they are trained by the best trainer at the track. Remember, it's the public that makes them 3-5 not the trainer. If anybody thought this horse was a mortal lock, they need to learn how to read the form. I said I like Ziade, and unlike others never accused him of anything! I was just pointing out that his horses are not performing as they usually do. KIRK is one of the few good trainers at Tampa and I look forward to him getting back to winning. There is nothing wrong with asking why someone who was winning all the time all of the sudden starts to struggle. I've wondered why castanon doesn't dominate like in past years or why proctor isn't winning more. That doesn't mean I dislike them.

[Rudy]

Like Steve, I too have met Kirk "Ziadie" he was a guest speaker at the Morning Glory last year.I was very impressed with him...His dad still trains at Calder and has been leading trainer numerous times....The people he trains for say you can't find a harder working guy...and they are fed well and vetted without hesitation to cost....His horses workouts very rarely show bullets except for maybe an occasional 1st timer.....I'm presently awaiting the return of RLadyJoy....she won a 1/2million$ race last year at Delaware...Like many before me have said I'm sure we are in a temporary 0 for steak...But the Ziadie train will be moving again soon all ................aboard...............

[Steve]

I got one hand on the rail ..

Steve

[ziadierulestampa]

If you guys will take my word for it---those of you who have never met Zadie--I will go so far as to say that he is one of the top three nicest trainers I have ever met. You would be hard pressed to not like him if you ever met him.

The professionals on this board know that Horses/Barns/Trainers cycle. It's really not much different than that of the financial markets. Not much different than life itself. There is always a balance. We seem to forget this when our money goes south. We seem to forget this a lot. Besides, blaming is the road easiest to travel when we need to cover our own short comings.

For those of you who think that everyday is an honest day with people helping others to win money then you need help. Everywhere I turn on a day to day basis I see people attempting to get an edge on everything. The investment bankers know how to pull this off on a minute to minute daily routine. Yet, people lose much more with them and somehow accept this as doing business.

Now back to Zadie. He hasn’t had a positive test for ANYTHING. People who I like a lot tell me everyday that Zadie must be cheating and now he is being careful.

Nope. This is the normal cycle that I would expect and as a handicapper-if you want to win at the races-you need to remember this natural occurrence.

Zadie is a nice person, professional, and is driven to win and so far not with ONE shred of evidence that he cheats. I will defend this trainer until evidence is uncovered or discovered that tells otherwise. I hope you agree. You would like Zadie if you ever met him and appreciate how professional he is and how hard he works to be the best.

Steve
TW
This posting by Steve,sums it all up,I could not have said any of it better!
I know Kirk,I know his assistant,there is not a harder working crew on any
backstretch in North America,period.
No excuses need to be made for this barn,0 for 6,big deal,get off the bandwagon if you want,I will continue to steer the ship.
As a sidebar,Kirk has not physically been at Tampa Bay Downs for 2 weeks now,so perhaps a personal visit by the Captain would be helpful.
ZRT

[elwood]

Ever since this cheating story broke, and the heat has been on the "bandwagon", people have been jumping off. Kirk himself seems to be one of the first leapers, as he hasn't been seen around. He's horses are running like they are suffering from withdraw. Coincidence? I don't know.

[ken]

I've heard horses sometimes perform better when the head trainers are there. Shahada feeds hers M+M's. Maybe Kirk feeds his sopinach!LOL!!

[ken]

I've heard horses sometimes perform better when the head trainers are there. Shahadi feeds hers M+M's. Maybe Kirk feeds his sopinach!LOL!!

[satisfyingwager]

Ever since this cheating story broke, and the heat has been on the "bandwagon", people have been jumping off. Kirk himself seems to be one of the first leapers, as he hasn't been seen around. He's horses are running like they are suffering from withdraw. Coincidence? I don't know.


What cheating story are you talking about? The one on this forum? You're kidding, right?

You guys are great with innuendo. You have like 10% of the story (including ZRT) and run with it. ZRT, do you know why he hasn't been here? Do you want to share it? It has nothing to do with Tampa or even horses.

This summer he had horses in Jersey, Calder, and Palm Beach Downs. He wasn't at all three all the time, if you can believe that, even he as good as he is can only be at one place at one time.

This could go on all day. Some of you obviously have it set in your mind that Kirk cheats. I guess there is nothing that anyone can say or do to change your mind about that.

[ziadierulestampa]

Satisfyingwager,you are doing a brilliant job,just brilliant,but you are wasting
your time and energy. The Barn
has lost 6 races in a row,thats it,and these fools are either jumping off the
bandwagon,or,the Ziadie haters,are circling the wagons like a bunch of vulgers.
You and I know why Kirk has not been at Tampa for 2 weeks,but why should
we share that with people who are enjoying his so called"slump"?
And that was not used as an excuse either.
Regardless,the Kirk Ziadie barn will continue to thrive,as he is one of the bright young stars of the sport we love so much.
ZRT

[Chuck]

Don't know Zadie personally but if people who I do know and trust like Steve say he is a super nice guy, I absolutely believe it. Know what? I am a super nice guy too. Salt of the earth if you ask my girlfriend or mother. Number two....I absolutely believe that Zadie's horses are well cared for and his crew works tremendously hard. All you need do is open your eyes and look at his horses in the paddock. They are well feed, well exercised and well groomed. No joke, his horses look as good or better than most being led over there. You know, I am a hard working guy too. On average, I am working, in one form or another, 12-18 hours a day, EVERY DAY. That's a guarantee..I work like a madman. So I understand and all these posts well. My problem is I don't understand what the real issue here is. EVERY horse get pre-raced with something. Whether it be Vit E and Selenium, Herbal Concoction XY or Sinister Product KY. IT PART OF THE GAME PEOPLE!! If you've owned a horse EVER, then you are part of the "problem." I just don't think there is a problem. If a runner in baseball picks up a signal, he'll use it to his advantage to steal third. CHEATER, CHEATER, CHEATER. Bar him from baseball...right now. Ok, a month from now, we have no game because when put in that situation every successful player will use whatever edge he deems ethical in his own mind. Before you jump this logic - STOP. Of course, this can be assailed but it is the way it is in life. Arguing it or crying and saying it shouldn't be so...well, step up to the fantasy train and buy a ticket back to the womb. Welcome to life. When something I run opens up and wins at Mountaineer by 10 lengths, yes, normally there is a reason for that and yes normally I have bet my money. Am I a cheater? Absolutely not. I would never believe that about myself. I am playing by the exact same rules everyone else does. My close "friends" horses look fantastic, every track I (they) run...Tampa, Cal, NY, the Mountain.....sometimes they win, more often they don't. That's the odds in playing this game. But when I bet, ok, yes, they win more often then lose.....so I am open to being called a cheater by all those who can't figure me out or lose more than I win. But again, I am not a cheater. You know what I am...a nice, hard working guy like Zadie who is a WINNER not a cheater. All that being said, if you are not at your desk, be it me or be it Zadie, things don't go as smoothly. You are never successful until you replace yourself and while I am here in Tampa things in NY or LA at my offices suffer a bit. Same with the barn and a great trainer. Stop calling this guy names. Do your homework, get real and maybe you too can figure out when his horses under perform and when they over perform. Yesterday, that horse had every excuse to lose. Absolutely, positively. And if you bet the horse at 3-5 step up for the knucklehead award. But the facts are the facts and I am going to call this the way I see it racing fans......two weeks ago that horse WOULDN'T have lost that race. That horse wouldn't have saved a ton of ground on the rail only to get beat. It would have swung wide and destroyed the horses who would have looked pathetic in comparison. No one who plays Zadie horses with a marble left in his game can debate that. When his barn is hot, he could lead a sausage with 4 legs and a tail over there and it looks like Affirmed crossing the finish line. When he isn't "hot", well, 3-5 horses that should be 6-5 still LOSE. That's why others enter the race and that's why the races are run. Like in baseball you lose more than you win but even 30 percent put you in the Hall. Speaking of the Hall...ever wonder why Lukas and Baffert won all those races at the start? A guy I have learned to respect recently reminded me of this in a conversation....they were QUARTER HORSE backgrounds. Isn't it interesting how THEN they were batting 300 and then the world caught up. Quarter Horse "methods" got replaced by Frankel and Cannes fishing Pacific Rim fishing fleet's finds, then they were replaced by Mulleins and his "little secret" training method, then when his horses were buttoned up before races suddenly there was no one batting 300 out there. A bunch of 100 hitters started winning races and, guess, what...big better actually stopped playing the track. Me included. I root for Mullins, same as I do the Yankees....cause they dominate, they win and I like playing/rooting for the winning team. Now go ahead....start hating on me for the obvious weaknesses in my logic in this post.

[satisfyingwager]

Satisfyingwager,you are doing a brilliant job,just brilliant,but you are wasting
your time and energy.Under the restraints of this web-site,you and I are unable to display just how ignorant a handful of these members are.The Barn
has lost 6 races in a row,thats it,and these fools are either jumping off the
bandwagon,or,the Ziadie haters,are circling the wagons like a bunch of vulgers.
You and I know why Kirk has not been at Tampa for 2 weeks,but why should
we share that with people who are enjoying his so called"slump"?
And that was not used as an excuse either.
Regardless,the Kirk Ziadie barn will continue to thrive,as he is one of the bright young stars of the sport we love so much.
ZRT

I know what you are saying. If it isn't obvious by now - Kirk is a friend of mine. I hate to see people slander his character. But, I'm done defending him on this board. This is the last post regarding him or any of his horses that I will post... I'm sure many of you are happy about that.

See you in the winner's circle and at the IRS window.

[Chuck]

Never stop defending what is right and what you believe in. I know it gets screwy sometimes when people just never seem to get it but, you know, lots of people read these posts who are silent voices and what you say has real meaning to them. It helps them form better opinions and more logical conclusions. If you fall quiet, they never have the opportunity to use what you say to help them.....you may not know they benefited but I bet that for every dumb-head rebuttal you get, there are 50 other people who silently benefited from your knowledge and post. Zadie-Man won't quit, although I don't him I do know THAT...so keep them coming, man. I appreciate you so I am sure there are tons of others that do too.

[ziadierulestampa]

Its too bad that a small group will stop you from continued postings,
as you are an asset to this web-site.That said,lets go to the private message
system,or please introduce yourself to me at TBD,I am always back at the
saddling area of the paddock when the Ziadie Barns horse is#8 or higher.
You can also find me in my makeshift office between the claims and security office first floor grandstand by the 3 televisions.
Good Luck to You

[ziadierulestampa]

Don't know Zadie personally but if people who I do know and trust like Steve say he is a super nice guy, I absolutely believe it. Know what? I am a super nice guy too. Salt of the earth if you ask my girlfriend or mother. Number two....I absolutely believe that Zadie's horses are well cared for and his crew works tremendously hard. All you need do is open your eyes and look at his horses in the paddock. They are well feed, well exercised and well groomed. No joke, his horses look as good or better than most being led over there. You know, I am a hard working guy too. On average, I am working, in one form or another, 12-18 hours a day, EVERY DAY. That's a guarantee..I work like a madman. So I understand and all these posts well. My problem is I don't understand what the real issue here is. EVERY horse get pre-raced with something. Whether it be Vit E and Selenium, Herbal Concoction XY or Sinister Product KY. IT PART OF THE GAME PEOPLE!! If you've owned a horse EVER, then you are part of the "problem." I just don't think there is a problem. If a runner in baseball picks up a signal, he'll use it to his advantage to steal third. CHEATER, CHEATER, CHEATER. Bar him from baseball...right now. Ok, a month from now, we have no game because when put in that situation every successful player will use whatever edge he deems ethical in his own mind. Before you jump this logic - STOP. Of course, this can be assailed but it is the way it is in life. Arguing it or crying and saying it shouldn't be so...well, step up to the fantasy train and buy a ticket back to the womb. Welcome to life. When something I run opens up and wins at Mountaineer by 10 lengths, yes, normally there is a reason for that and yes normally I have bet my money. Am I a cheater? Absolutely not. I would never believe that about myself. I am playing by the exact same rules everyone else does. My close "friends" horses look fantastic, every track I (they) run...Tampa, Cal, NY, the Mountain.....sometimes they win, more often they don't. That's the odds in playing this game. But when I bet, ok, yes, they win more often then lose.....so I am open to being called a cheater by all those who can't figure me out or lose more than I win. But again, I am not a cheater. You know what I am...a nice, hard working guy like Zadie who is a WINNER not a cheater. All that being said, if you are not at your desk, be it me or be it Zadie, things don't go as smoothly. You are never successful until you replace yourself and while I am here in Tampa things in NY or LA at my offices suffer a bit. Same with the barn and a great trainer. Stop calling this guy names. Do your homework, get real and maybe you too can figure out when his horses under perform and when they over perform. Yesterday, that horse had every excuse to lose. Absolutely, positively. And if you bet the horse at 3-5 step up for the knucklehead award. But the facts are the facts and I am going to call this the way I see it racing fans......two weeks ago that horse WOULDN'T have lost that race. That horse wouldn't have saved a ton of ground on the rail only to get beat. It would have swung wide and destroyed the horses who would have looked pathetic in comparison. No one who plays Zadie horses with a marble left in his game can debate that. When his barn is hot, he could lead a sausage with 4 legs and a tail over there and it looks like Affirmed crossing the finish line. When he isn't "hot", well, 3-5 horses that should be 6-5 still LOSE. That's why others enter the race and that's why the races are run. Like in baseball you lose more than you win but even 30 percent put you in the Hall. Speaking of the Hall...ever wonder why Lukas and Baffert won all those races at the start? A guy I have learned to respect recently reminded me of this in a conversation....they were QUARTER HORSE backgrounds. Isn't it interesting how THEN they were batting 300 and then the world caught up. Quarter Horse "methods" got replaced by Frankel and Cannes fishing Pacific Rim fishing fleet's finds, then they were replaced by Mulleins and his "little secret" training method, then when his horses were buttoned up before races suddenly there was no one batting 300 out there. A bunch of 100 hitters started winning races and, guess, what...big better actually stopped playing the track. Me included. I root for Mullins, same as I do the Yankees....cause they dominate, they win and I like playing/rooting for the winning team. Now go ahead....start hating on me for the obvious weaknesses in my logic in this post.
Excellent posting. I steer the Ziadie Bandwagon at TBD,and I have no problem with anything you have said.
Good Luck to you,Sir!

[Chuck]

Of course you don't......we get it. Now we need to keep the ones who do get it from "defecting" due to frustration and figure out a way to help all people learn as much as they can about racing so that the sport grows. Ignorance damages racing. The day of the rough shaven old man muttering "fix" whenever his horse loses a photo needs to be put down FOREVER. I haven't said it before...but you are a lot more active then I am on here...and I personally want to thank you for your opinions and your knowledge. I know that I know a lot about racing but you and a few others who probably can guess who they are have personally stimulated me and made me a better participant in this sport. I mean that with all sincerity. Thank you and thank you to Steve for have the energy and dedication to give us all this voice.

[elwood]

Elwood first let me say, even at the risk of violating Steve's rules for the forums, that you are a miserable person.

What cheating story are you talking about? The one on this forum? You're kidding, right?

You guys are great with innuendo. You have like 10% of the story (including ZRT) and run with it. ZRT, do you know why he hasn't been here? Do you want to share it? It has nothing to do with Tampa or even horses.

This summer he had horses in Jersey, Calder, and Palm Beach Downs. He wasn't at all three all the time, if you can believe that, even he as good as he is can only be at one place at one time.

This could go on all day. Some of you obviously have it set in your mind that Kirk cheats. I guess there is nothing that anyone can say or do to change your mind about that.

Yes, I was kidding. Have a sense of humor there Guy. I was responding to this "band wagon" topic which I think is hilarious.

By cheating, I was referring to the accusations made about Don Rice and Kirk Zadie of using illegal means to get an advantage. whether or not either one, or both of them is guilty, I am not the judge.

I think it's funning the way Zadie has gotten so pumped-up by some people. there is no doubt he's a good trainer, that's obvious. And from what I read about him, If i were going to meet him , I would be expecting to meet a real nice guy. But even nice guys can make bad decisions. that's not an accusation, that's a fact.

I don't care who the trainer is, I'm not betting a 3/5 horse to win. If I use that horse in a trifecta, I want him to get beat by my long-shots and run 3rd. That has nothing to do with whether or not i like the trainer of the 3/5 horse. You figure it out.

[Chuck]

Being the odd ball gambler that I am, every now and then I do bet a horse that is 1/2 to 4/5. Not every day but actually more so than horses that are 15-1 or better. Kind of makes sense if you think about it. My last 3-5 shot was Bluegrass Cat at Tampa Saturday....to me it was nearly a given and I remember commenting to Steve, actually, that I liked the horse at 3-5, meaning I thought he stood a far better chance than that of winning.

I went back and looked over the last 10 bets in that range I made and the ROI on them was .34. Needless to say, they were not small wagers either. Looking at 15-1 shots or over....excluding horses I had special knowledge of my ROI was .18 on those horses.

Me...I wish there were more 3-5 shots that I calculated would win 9 of 10 times they ran that particular race!!

My point here to novice players is that sometimes it is better to judge a horse by his chances rather than his price as a starting point. And remember why most of those CLASS 3/5 plays are 3/5...they were not made that way by random $1.00 players.

[ziadierulestampa]

TAMPA BAY DOWNS THURSDAY RACE 9
# 3 SOLDIERS WORD crushed maidens on cruise control,finds another field
that he can beat up on.
This horse may be seen in the Tampa Bay Derby.
Captain Kirk Ziadie starts a new winning streak,right here,right now,but at
3/5,the value play is the Cold Late Lezcano Double # 3-4
Good Luck and Good Racing
ZRT

[Chuck]

I hope you are correct Zadie-Zen-Master. But hey, do my numbers deceive me or has Dale Bennett hit 8 or 9 of 10 horses at this meet at less than even money with all finishing on the board. I think his ROI was 2.52 on the win bets. It would be intersting to know Kirk's numbers on dead favorites....do you know them off hand. I can look them up on BRIS but I figured you'd have them handy...yes, I am a lazy cuss.