Added Distance for Wide Turns.

[thoroughbred]

It's interesting that the added distance a horse travels when wide going around a turn does not depend at all on the length of the turn. It only depends on how far the horse is from the rail.

To see that this is so:

The distance around one turn, i.e., half a circle, is
C = pi * r
where r is the radius of the turn, and pi is the well known constant 3.1416--

If the separation between horses racing side by side is s, then the distance traveled by a horse racing wide around the turn is
Cn = pi*(r+n*s)
where n takes on the values, 1, 2, 3, etc. representing wide horse positions from the rail.

The extra distance, d, around a turn, travelled by a non-rail horse is the difference between C and Cn
d = pi*n*s
which does not depend on the length of the turn.

So, for example, if we assume the separation between horses as they go around the turn is 3 feet, and that a length is 10 feet, then the extra distance for a horse that is the fifth horse from the rail will be about 4.7 lengths.

[satisfyingwager]

I've always had a theory about turf races when the rail is out that relates to your posting.

If the rail is out, it means that the turn is wider.

Which means that the turn actually ends further into the stretch.

So, closers have a harder time getting up - because they have to travel on a wider semi circle (the turn).

And - do not have the opportunity to change leads until the horse has finished the turn.

- yes, I have a lot of spare time.

[Rudy]

When that rail is out speed is extremly dangerous.It becomes so hard for closers unless there is almost a whole field of speed for a closer to have any chance... Rudy

[Exciting Story]

Agreed. That's why closers do so well with the narrow turns at Del Mar.

[ken]

Since I am no good at algebra, let me see if I understand youi.
Each path wide = about 10' extra travel? I concluded that based on different calculations but I think it is good.
What is your opinion on variations in banking of the turn having influence? I have read the banking pretty much negates the centrifical force, but that Polyturf lessens the effect so less banking is needed.

[thegrandmeister]

what do you mean by the rail being in or out. know my home track as far as routes & going wide . but would like to hear this theory thegrandmeister

[satisfyingwager]

what do you mean by the rail being in or out. know my home track as far as routes & going wide . but would like to hear this theory thegrandmeister

On turf races because the turf is so fragile and needs to be protected they will move a portable rail out - so the turf doesn't get torn up. It's like going to the driving range where they have multiple tees - so when one gets torn up they can use another one and let the others grow back.

At Tampa, they have 3 settings for the turf rail. When it is out at its furthest is means that it is really about 30' from the real turf rail. This makes the turns wider and the oval geometrically grows closer to a circle. This benefits horses with speed and hurts horses that are strictly closers. When the rail is at its original setting it helps the closers.

[mister zesterhouse]

No doubt. If the rail is out at Churchill you better be very close to the pace.

[thegrandmeister]

:) thanks guys . i`m up north in ny .no turf racing till well for awhile yet. now at belmont park , they have the widerner turf =main & an inner turf course. for now the rail is never moved . they race off the main track at aqu. in winter & race over what is called the inner track. so then i suppose the turns are shorter . what does that call for. i will write about this again beore belmont opens . do any of you mind if i save your user names so i remember . i just joined & am green ,rank like a skittish 2 yr old filly ha ha. tell you the truth the racing at my home track this winter is bad. weekend feature 65,000 alw. i haven`t seen too many horses make up more than 5 or so lengths in the stretch at any track. so let me know more if there is any. any angles are appreciated. but i think i saw a section pertaining to angles thanks again thegrandmeister of queens (:]

[deltasports]

i always liked the Widener course because they could always run a total of 28 horses from the gates.those were the days when they were real RACES...I REALLY MISS IT

OH FOR THE YESTERYEAR

[thegrandmeister]

just a few more months & the big b will be open for biz. what do you think about 1m races at the big a being 1 turn. how do you figure it changes things? thegrandmeister

[Mister Sanderson]

RUNNING 6F AROUND THAT BULLRING SHIPPING IN TO THE 1 1/8 MILE ONE-TURN RUN AT BELMONT?; CULTURE SHOCK? I REALLY LIKE WATCHING BELMONT BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF THE TRACK, THE SAME WITH CHURCHILL WITH THE LONG STRETCH AND THE ONE MILE CHUTE.. I THINK ALOT OF TIMES THOUGH WE CAN OVERTHINK THE "RAIL OUT" THEORY BECAUSE JOCKEY'S AND TRAINERS KNOW THIS AS WELL. SO MANY IN A RACE MIGHT PUSH THERE HORSES MUCH SOONER AND HARDER THAN NORMAL TO GET INTO THAT SPOT...SO OFTEN, THE CLOSER STILL HAS A SHOT..:eek:

[thegrandmeister]

yes the jockeys know where they would like to put their horses ie which path. thats why an outside post ,where your horse has speed .BUT INSIDE OF HIM theres legit speed + those that just break well that day is a disadvantage unless he can pass the inside speed & get over ,to save ground or make the lead. then its a ? of how much is left in the tank. so many factors in our game. + they are always changing.what was great today ,may be a bust manana. anyway i just joined .its quite friendly i`ve gotten at least 1 reply for every post .haven`t hardly looked around yet. don`t know your age.but in the 60's when i started out. there was a jock in ny robert ussery . he would run out 5 or 6 paths . then drop down on the turn for the lead & win quite a bit. they still call a ride like that as using usserys alley. thegrandmeister

[mister zesterhouse]

keep it comin'. *I thought the rail was moved out at Belmont (quite often it seems). Herb Mccauley fans out there?

[thegrandmeister]

yes at bel the turf rail is moved in & out. no turf racing yet up here at aqu thegrandmeister

[thegrandmeister]

I've always had a theory about turf races when the rail is out that relates to your posting.

If the rail is out, it means that the turn is wider.

Which means that the turn actually ends further into the stretch.

So, closers have a harder time getting up - because they have to travel on a wider semi circle (the turn).

And - do not have the opportunity to change leads until the horse has finished the turn.

- yes, I have a lot of spare time.
i saw an article = brisnet handicappers mag on top .click. if you scroll down you will see an article talking about the new rail & changes at G.P.

[thegrandmeister]

Agreed. That's why closers do so well with the narrow turns at Del Mar.
they`re tight at pimlico. but they say its a speed track. unless you`re strictly talking turf tgm

[gestalt]

It's interesting that the added distance a horse travels when wide going around a turn does not depend at all on the length of the turn. It only depends on how far the horse is from the rail.

To see that this is so:

The distance around one turn, i.e., half a circle, is
C = pi * r
where r is the radius of the turn, and pi is the well known constant 3.1416--

If the separation between horses racing side by side is s, then the distance traveled by a horse racing wide around the turn is
Cn = pi*(r+n*s)
where n takes on the values, 1, 2, 3, etc. representing wide horse positions from the rail.

The extra distance, d, around a turn, travelled by a non-rail horse is the difference between C and Cn
d = pi*n*s
which does not depend on the length of the turn.

So, for example, if we assume the separation between horses as they go around the turn is 3 feet, and that a length is 10 feet, then the extra distance for a horse that is the fifth horse from the rail will be about 4.7 lengths.You are on to some good info,time has a mathmatical meaning that reveals final time which may or may not be true, this is construed as realism. The assessment of fitted models, all of whose events have been adjusted, can be construed realistically, but the assessment of models containing adjustable events conforms to instrumentalism. One must overcome the deficiencies of available data like timing inaccuracies, changes in configuration, distance changes, chaos, accuracy of beaten lengths, and much more. Akaike's theorem and Pataphysics by Alfred Jarry are some areas of assistance. Nice job, I like your work.

[ronwins]

It's interesting that the added distance a horse travels when wide going around a turn does not depend at all on the length of the turn. It only depends on how far the horse is from the rail.
[snip]
So, for example, if we assume the separation between horses as they go around the turn is 3 feet, and that a length is 10 feet, then the extra distance for a horse that is the fifth horse from the rail will be about 4.7 lengths.

I'm thinking when we (me) used 1/5's (fifths of a second) for scoring time (final time) way back in the day before 100's of a second & pc were used.
you get as now horses coming very wide out of the stretch turn onto the stretch.
a horse say 5 wide was 5 fifths of a second (a 1/5 of a second equals a lengths) faster for final time.

1/5's of a second per lengths weren't perfect...but it worked back then!

does my reply to your post have any worth today or for that matter with my Quote of your post:(