drug testing

[horseymomkc]

Okay, Don Rice got ruled off of Tampa Bay Downs for Milkshaking today. Why isn't Kirk Zaidie being tested? He is running on all sorts of "Fun" Things, shouldn't the playing field be level. We test human athletes all the time, lets test every horse!!!. Train better, feed better, and then you shall win.

[ken]

OK by me!
Too many legal drugs instead of keeping horses healthy, and the small (under 2%) of ilegal drugs or amounts found give excuse for negatives. Keeping the legs healthier will help much.

[meatheadfonts]

What Are You Don Rices Lover?
Kirk Ziadie Gets Tested All The Time. They Cant Find Nothing,nothing,and Until They Do,the Smart People Are Laughing All The Way To The Bank,while You Keep Crying Over A Man Who Has
Been Cheating For Years. Eventually They All Get Caught.

[easyluckyed]

They Finally Nailed Trainer Don Rice At Tampa Bay Downs Today.
30 Day Suspension,he Should Get 30 Days Jail For All The Cheating
He Has Done Over The Years.
That Ought To Wipe The Smirk Right Off Of Mike Buccinas Face,
That Arrogant Sob!
A Level Playing Field,thats All A Horsemen Asks For,on Any Backstretch.

[Steve]

horseymomkc,

I am with you. I think there should be a level field for everyone, and nothing (well almost nothing) gets me any more upset than when I find that someone has attempted (or successfully) stuck it to us handicappers and owners.

Personally I don't know about Kirk, and believe it or not I didn't know about Rice for sure. Just suspicions until today. My hopes that Kirk is clean, but if there is doubt--especially from someone like you then I hope that he his exposed and exposed soon.

As you know he has approached me recently about buying a possible Classic horse. I am always open to any solid business proposition AS LONG AS IT IS HONEST.

BTW, best to you and family..

Steve
TW

[horseymomkc]

I think we need to concentrate on the well being of the horse. Drugs, like EPO, ritiline and viagra have no place in horse racing, yet the "authorities" do not feel the need to test for this in Florida. Lets' be better horseman and out train the compatition. Australia is DRUG FREE, the best horse wins, why can't we? Some trainers have not been caught, yet. HONESTY AND COMPASSION ALWAYS PREVAILS, even in the horse business.

Let's don't hang any one, just make the rules stick to all.

[ziadierulestampa]

The Authorities Have Not Been Able To Catch Kirk Ziadie Using"fun"
Drugs,yet You Make Accusations.
Unless You Can Back Up Your Statement With Proof,then Shut Your Yap,but Only After You Alter Your User Name To; Ahorsesass.

[thebrotherinlaws]

i am thrilled to hear that that overthehill cheat,Don Rice,got a copy of the
home page for 30 days.
anybody who knows anything about Tampa Racing,knew that this farmhand
was getting away with it,and finally,somebody stepped up and nailed the bum
and there are plenty of others delighted with this news.
lets see the management at Tampa,attempt to hide this story.

[ken]

Equibase says Kirk is winning 38%. I am usually not one to rant about 30% trainers, but 38% seems extremely high if he runs a cross-section of horses.
DRF study years ago showed less than 2% of winners' tests showed violations, but milkshaking was not included.
I am really down on milkshake violations since all are not allowed to use it!

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

The Authorities Have Not Been Able To Catch Kirk Ziadie Using"fun"
Drugs,yet You Make Accusations.
Unless You Can Back Up Your Statement With Proof,then Shut Your Yap,but Only After You Alter Your User Name To; Ahorsesass.

Didnt Zadie and his father get ruled off earlier this year? for 15 days?.Nothing worse then a cheat. Too many small guys havent a chance when you have guys that are trying to beat the system.

[Rudy]

Last week this handicapper was at the tail end of a conversation which talked about milkshakes and rwo trainers being caught. One a very high profile trainer at the Downs for many years....Its been overly amazing how a trainer winning the top honors year after year, couldnot win outside Florida...I was probably the only person who very often didnt have him at a good price..........Justice has prevailed and shame on the people I told a week ago of this.....................that didnt beleive......

[Rudy]

.........As stated in a reply this morning I overheard a conversation about two people caught at the Downs two weeks ago and thought it might have been a rumor...Turns out it wasn't...........Lets not all be in denial especially those of you who think Kirks never been caught. This past summer he was using something not permitted at Calder.. I am not here to bash trainers. Kirk takes excellent care of his horses and puts in very long hours. .He has proven he can win in other states and tracks.......The bottom line is we need a level playing field. Correctly tattooed horses,and swift and equal punishment for all trainers found cheating. Testing at the Downs is different from other tracks. Perhaps more frequent testing.....is the answer..I will continue to play Don Rice and Kirk..everybody looks for edges..This gambling boys..........betters beware

[gutlessroberts]

Well Written,but Why Does The Name Kirk Ziadie Come Up In Every
Posting?
Sure,he Has To Be Using Something,but So Are A Whole Lot Of Others.
Again,if You Cant Prove It,dont Say It!
Good Luck

[ziadierulestampa]

Sounds Like Sour-grapes To Me.
Have You Seen The Movie?

[trifecta mark]

At the 2004 DRF handicapping expo Andy Beyer was the keynote speaker. He could discuss any topic he wished...and his focus was on the "supertrainers" who far exceed the long track record of the best hall of fame trainers. Any trainer who can consistently hit at 28% or above should be taken very seriously by handicappers. Trainers that can boost performance in older horses claimed by 15-40% should be monitored. It is just a fact of life for the players. We would be fools to think that baseball and oylimpic athletes are getting away with illegal performance enhancing substance abuse and it is not a part of racing. There is a lot of money involved and last I knew...the horses can't say anything. More needs to be done. I don't think the sport will be entirely can cleaned up until congress gets involved because the powers to be in racing are not acting quickly enough or they just prefer to look the other way. I thought the quotes associated with Jeff Mullins in California last year were very telling. Very few people care about fairness and justice for the betting public.

[Chuck]

Ouch, ouch and more ouch. Where do I even start THIS post?!! Look....I am going to give it to you all STRAIGHT.....once and for all, no crap. Believe it or not; that's all up to you. Many readers know me as (a) one of the most consistently successful HORSEPLAYERS (not necessarily handicappers) on the planet. I play infrequently but when I do play I play large. (B) a horse owner for 30 years at virtually every racetrack in every country, including Australia, England and Hong Kong. (C) A chemist and a damn good chemical engineer if my track record for product development is any indication. And I am not just one of those owners that show up to feed a horse a mint. I ("my friends and associates") have owned racing farms/facilities for 20 years. When I roll out of bed my first stop is normally helping scoop grain, fill hay racks and checking legs. (D) An American.

So here goes. First, we should all stop attacking people until they are PROVEN guilty. This is America, folks. Success is often a result of fresher stock, better stock and running horses where they belong. Calling everyone overly successful a cheat is absurd. That is like saying anyone going on an extended bad streak is an idiot or a drunk who doesn't show up mornings. Is there cheating? Of course. Are there drunks losing races? Of course. But unless you are truly on the inside please stop pointing definitive fingers or move to France where you are guilty until proven innocent.

And all these calls for a level playing field. There is no such thing, folks. Never was and never will be. If you believe that horses in Australia run drug free....please!!! Ever hear of Blue Nitro? Not to mention the fact that guys where extracting sea life venom over there for a decade before the biochem Ph.D student tripped across what has become Prialt. No cheating in Australia. That is like saying there is no beer drinking in Australia. Or no beautiful women. Its true the enforcement is tougher, smarter and better but so are the underlying methods. And even tougher in Hong Kong...but I can tell you a story or two about what is being used there as well.

The miracles of modern chemistry prevail. Many cheat, some get caught, most never do. Oh yea, a test now and then for something accidental or silly goes positive but so what. Testing urine for Clenbuterol doesn't turn up positives for r-isomers of related substances. Nor do typical tests at most venues even turn up trach injections prior to leading the horses over there. And if you believe that relatively small molecules like ephedrine can't be hidden in amino matrixes that are virtually undetectable go take Chem 101 and NEVER bet Mountaineer. All this energy we put into leveling the playing field chemically and then we let a bunch of guys with size 4 hats jump on the horses and do what THEY DO. Jeez...please. Even at Tampa....my Lord......I can cite example after example of questionable rides day after day. Will I call for a level playing field banning them as cheaters. No way. On any given day any one of them can do what most of us consider cheating. Or maybe we should level that playing field by giving them a freaking geometry test before every ride!! C'mon now. You are beat by the jocks more often then the horses. Lord, open your eyes.

Look, this is the game. Rules and regs are just wonderful but next to useless, just like they are in professional sports. Or in business. Life is buyer beware guys and if you don't like the way the game is played either change yourself or go watch cute chicks riding white horses at the circus. Me personally....if I suspect someone of "cheating", I shut my trap and open my mind to the possibilities and how I can knock down the lion share of the playable pools. Others are doing the same because it sure is tough to get good prices on my biggest "suspects." And that holds true on any day and at any track.

The bottom line is places like Mountaineer are the wild, wild West while California is smarter and more diligent. But then again, two years ago it was easier playing California when there wasn't cops following horses from trainers who won more than two in a row.

And by the way...if you haven't figured it out....cheating isn't just chemical. Shock wave machines give some amazing edges yet the regs vary and are virtually unenforced except by scared vets reporting honest session use by small trainers with no clout.

You list me 30 methods "cheaters" got caught in the last 2 years and I will give you a method around each and 30 new methods not yet caught. And in the meantime...while everyone is crying about drugs and performance additives....I'll play that angle and lose my sleep over the size 4 hats, THE GATE CREW (wanna know how many horses a gate guy screwed up this meet) and so forth. Two months ago at Mountaineer I paid a leading rider there $200 extra bucks to turn around and smack the gate guy in the mouth with his whip as the horses were loading. Not so much pay back for grabbing a horses tail (hot favorite) as they spring but more as a preventative for doing it again. Get the picture.....now let me pop a couple ephedrines and get to the races.

By the way, the only real way to stop cheating is to do what I do to POLICE MYSELF. I love the animals, care about each as individuals and would never do anything chemically (or otherwise) to harm them to get an edge or make a few extra bucks. I'd no more inject one of my horses with something that is a double edged sword then I would kick any of my dogs because I was mad at the world. Pretty corny, right? Maybe....here's my gambling advice.....make a list of cheaters and bankroll your picks. If you end up making money cheating might exist but my guess is you probably won't scream as loud. If you lose....oh well, maybe cheating isn't exactly as you thought it was. Always remember....the real bad eggs smell up the carton and are easy to find. The sport is better without them for sure. But all eggs have small cracks and some are easier to find then others. Some matter, some don't. I'll keep making omelets...how about you?

[ronwins]

...but they first found it in New York!
cheating is part of horse racing...yeah & I keep coming back!

ron

[meatheadfonts]

I remember his comments well,they were brilliant,right on,and thank you for
putting them up on this site for all these guys to read.
Good Luck to you

[Steve]

Chuck,

Well stated. BTW, know of anthing that can make me skinny?

Steve
TW

[ken]

I agree on swift justice! Seems to me a few getting caught has been good warning at other tracks. I hope everyone decides to play by all the rules.

[ken]

Cheating, and misinformation.
BTW, I have a (free) website about positive things going on in racing. Various improvements are happening, but slowly, on several fronts.

[ken]

If everything were equal, IMO not as an insider, large or small trainer can succeed if competent, knowledgeable, thrifty, and has good help. Everything else being equal.
Perhaps the nature of the game and all the duties of a trainer makes it tougher for some smaller stables. I've seen a long list of what a stable (+trainer) have to do to ensure each horse is fit and ready to race; not to mention paperwork and point and responibilties... Admirable but not a job I would want!

[Steve]

OK to post Web site here Ken. Also you should add to your profile.

Steve

[LongshotLarry]

Chuck, now, that was a fantastic post!! Your knowledge of the game covers the planet! I especially liked your anecdote re. the gate crew. Jockeys screwing up? Thats why at TBD I have a huge list of trip notes, although the field sizes have a lot to do with traffic problems..Thanks again, Chuck, people like you help make this forum both entertaining and enlightening..

LL

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

...but they first found it in New York!
cheating is part of horse racing...yeah & I keep coming back!

ron

Im very sorry you feel that way, Im also sorry to see "Another" Black eye for racing.30 days isnt enough.

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

Sounds Like Sour-grapes To Me.
Have You Seen The Movie?

I see we have a Smart A$$ here...Go do some research and you will see Zadie and his Dad got nailed .They both got 15 days,I love guys like you, You seem to think you know everything when all you really know is nothing!

[ken]

Mullins- There are all kinds of horserace bettores betting based on all variety of reasons, including those who are wild guessing. I appreciate the money all of them contribute to the pools!
Sour grapes- many already joining Steve's website are obviously very familiar with Tampa Bay Downs from all perspectives- me from online info.
Tom of McSchell Racing (INC! now!) has experience trainng at TBD and also has some strong opinions sometimes but is fair.
What relatively little time I have spent learning about racing I know there is games that go on on the basckside and in the office- the condition book and M/L by necessity subjective- and stall assingment problems (GILL) as well as track safety problems (CA racing board) and drugs to name a few.
But- KIF- Keep It Fun!

[horseymomkc]

What is Kirk's record at other tracks, Calder, Meadowlands, Monmouth etc? It appears Tampa is the only place he is successful at. May be the lack of testing???? STella Theyar is stopping the milkshaking test due to cost, is a horses life that trivial to her?

[ziadierulestampa]

I see we have a Smart A$$ here...Go do some research and you will see Zadie and his Dad got nailed .They both got 15 days,I love guys like you, You seem to think you know everything when all you really know is nothing!
I asked around,and nobody even knows who the heck you are,thats how much of a non-entity you are.
If you dont like the way the game is played,get out,I'm sure there is someone
out there who will give you $100 for your garbage.
I know all about Ziadie & his Father getting 15 days,so did 3 other trainers
at the same time.
So What.
He is still training,still winning races,and I keep cashing winning tickets.
By the way,when was the last time your horses won a race?

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

I asked around,and nobody even knows who the heck you are,thats how much of a non-entity you are.
If you dont like the way the game is played,get out,I'm sure there is someone
out there who will give you $100 for your garbage.
I know all about Ziadie & his Father getting 15 days,so did 3 other trainers
at the same time.
So What.
He is still training,still winning races,and I keep cashing winning tickets.
By the way,when was the last time your horses won a race?

Hmm let me see..You must realize I only have a 4 horse stable at the time.Oct 31 Oceen Reef..85.00...Dec 4 Winds Of Love..38.00...Dec 26 La Roveina 5-1 d'qed to second. I just claimed a filly at GP tht won by 12 lengths and I was the only one in for her,She went 2i 44 58 105 ..Yeah Im a dipstick!

[Eifel]

What is Kirk's record at other tracks, Calder, Meadowlands, Monmouth etc? It appears Tampa is the only place he is successful at. May be the lack of testing???? STella Theyar is stopping the milkshaking test due to cost, is a horses life that trivial to her?
While it's true that Kirk didn't win as much at Monmouth than at Tampa he still won his share of races and was competitive. It's obviously easier to win at Tampa because of all the lousy trainers than at Monmouth. Moreover Kirk isn't the only trainer who can't win at the same rate when he leaves Tampa.
T. Proctor, J Scott, Zweisler etc all very good trainers don't win as much up north than at Tampa. To say Kirk wins at Tampa because he can cheat is idiotic. Kirk still wins oustide of Tampa icluding stakes races at various tracks, while Don Rice has never won crap outside of Tampa. How is it that Rice can claim cheap horses (Dry Ice for example) and turn them into winners? I don't see Ziade performing these miracle turnarounds. Kirk wins with quality horses (whenthedoveflies, Rlady Joy etc). Since the drug testing is tougher this year it would be logical that a trainer that depends on cheating would not be winning as much as last season. Who fits the bill better Rice (8% winners, 22% itm) or Ziade 38% winners, 76% itm)?

[ken]

http://www.jockeyclub.com/roundtable_05.asp?section=8.
1.7% positives for class 1, 2, 3 drugs- most of those were not performance-enhancing. That was in 1991 and most likely the last time %s were releaesed. Maybe it is time for a new release of national % positives!

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

The Authorities Have Not Been Able To Catch Kirk Ziadie Using"fun"
Drugs,yet You Make Accusations.
Unless You Can Back Up Your Statement With Proof,then Shut Your Yap,but Only After You Alter Your User Name To; Ahorsesass.

This post tells me that Zadie hasnt been caught,We do have proof!! Why "Lie" for the guy, WHEN in another post , you said you knew..So What...That tells me you could care less about the cheating in horseracing.Sorry we are off to a bad start...You post to this person struck a nerve.Nothing worse then a bully behind a computer

[ziadierulestampa]

This post tells me that Zadie hasnt been caught,We do have proof!! Why "Lie" for the guy, WHEN in another post , you said you knew..So What...That tells me you could care less about the cheating in horseracing.Sorry we are off to a bad start...You post to this person struck a nerve.Nothing worse then a bully behind a computer
YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY SPENDING THAT TIME WITH YOUR HORSES THE WAY KIRK DOES,CONSTANTLY WORKING HIS BUTT OFF.

[ken]

I suggest anyone interested read the Florida racing rules about drugs, testing, and penalties. They are very clear about equiptment that can be used for milkshaking and for proving by positive tests that there is a drug in the horse or in possesion of a connection. Penalties are license suspension or revocation for class 1, 2, or 3 drugs and UP TO 30 or 60 days for class 4 or 5 drugs positive test.
If anyone has "evidence" according to Fl rules that a trainer has possesion of or has given as horse drugs in violation they can report them. I doubt "evidence" under Fl rules incluse too high a win % or a claimed horse "waking up", but I do not claim to know for sure.
Meanwhile these organizations are working on the illegal drug problem on a nationwide scale:
NTRA; Jockey Club; AAEP; HBPA. There may be others.
The best thing I can say about Tom's statements is that peer pressure from other trainers may be a good way to help also.
Toi repeat what has been said already on this thread- a level playing field benefits everyone and less drugs of all kinds will benefit the horses, which is my main concern, since even many "legal" racehorse drugs cover up problems to maybe allow some horses to race when they be better off taking more time off.
I am pushing (by various emailings) to try and get racehorses tested more thoroughly for leg problems.

[ken]

The 1991 report was even more thotough as to categorization, but here is the other results available:
" the Mid-Atlantic regulators compiled a list of every positive test called in the region, from New York to Virginia, for eight years - from 1997 through 2004. The results were highly encouraging.

Roughly 114,000 Thoroughbred races were run during that period. Roughly 229,000 samples were tested - harness and Thoroughbred. Of those samples tested, 1,872 were called positive, or .0082 percent..."