Questions from Novice @ handicapping [Archive]

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THE KID

01-29-2006, 07:09 AM

Hope these questions aren't too elementary for your forum...
1. How do they add or subtract weight of horses?
(besides getting a different jockey)
2. How are horses awarded post positions?
3. How does age of horse figure in handicapping? i.e. Is there a prime age?
Thanks to anyone who can help!

Rudy

01-29-2006, 07:51 AM

Weight assignments are usually changed to give each horse an equal chance to win...If a filly is racing against boys usually the filly will carry less weight.The age of the horse can also change the assignment of weight. ...Younger horses carry less weight than aged or older horses when facing each other.....Another factor (here is a good example ) Above the Wind will be racing in about 2 weeks he will pick up weight against a field he has already beaten .To equal the playing field weights are raised and lowered.Each race description tells the weight assigned and the conditions.The age of a horse racing career can vary on several factors.How many races they have run, breeding and how well they have been taken care of...It reminds me of an old runner named Gene who raced at Tampa in the early 80's he was beleived to be unsound on was on his way to say the market..The market was closed they kept him he won a ...bunch...I forget how many??? of cheap races I forget how old he was but he was no youngster...Also a horse named John Henry I cant tell you how old he was but he went from rags to riches claiming to stakes race...One last note..there was a horse in Chicago who was claimed purchased for over $100k he was dropped from a Maiden Special Weight to a $10k maiden claimer and claimed he went on to win close to $400k last year...He should be running at Gulfstream this meet...good luck hope I could help..

elwood

01-29-2006, 08:53 AM

Also,there are many times conditions for a race that will allow weight advantages for horses that have'nt won a race in 6 months or a year.

Post positions a awarded by a drawing.

I believe on average horses are best at 4 and 5 years old. Some but not most get better at 6,or 7

JohnnyB

01-29-2006, 09:43 AM

they add and subtract weight from a horse, using the same jockey, by the ammount of the "dead weight" that is assigned.

ken

01-29-2006, 01:19 PM

Weight- they have weights they put in the saddle. Horses rarely run anymore againsst others carrying more than 10 pounds over their jockey and dead weight combined.
Post position- by chance. drawing lots.
Age- The Triple Crown makes 3 the prime age. Horses are not allowed to race prior to age 2, and then usually only vs. other two-year-olds. 3's can run alone or with older. 4's and up are the other age category.

ken

01-29-2006, 01:20 PM

Weight- they have weights they put in the saddle. Horses rarely run anymore against others carrying more than 10 pounds over their jockey and dead weight combined.
Post position- by chance. drawing lots.
Age- The Triple Crown makes 3 the prime age. Horses are not allowed to race prior to age 2, and then usually only vs. other two-year-olds. 3's can run alone or with older. 4's and up are the other age category.

ronwins

01-29-2006, 03:16 PM

Weight- they have weights they put in the saddle. Horses rarely run anymore against others carrying more than 10 pounds over their jockey and dead weight combined.
(snip).

Ken,

their's a boy losing his bug this week at Aqueduct.
...his dead weight is 114 lb, some times at the end of the day he's down to 113 lb...he will be listed on the weight he weights in on in the charts.
(these bug boys are never overweight for the horse they ride)

...that said, a bug for those that don't known get 10 lb,7lb, & 5lb weight allowance for riding a horse, but after ONE YEAR of riding...the bug gets no more allowences...he become a JOCKEY

what I'm saying is in the DRF a horse is listed without a bug at 121 & listed at 111 with a say 10lb bug (I'm using 10lb bug for example only)...
...if the jockey dead weight is 114 (that's his weight) & if the trainer list a bug boy with a 10lb bug to ride his horse,... the horse is now listed at 111 in drf/program, one would think the horse is 3lb overweight because the bug boy would weight in at 114 or maybe at 113 because of weight loss...no..no, the horse is listed to run at 111 even if his bug boy is 114!...
this is to long...blaaa, blaa bla.

ron

ken

01-29-2006, 05:45 PM

I am not an expert, but tracks are more worried about live (jockey and basic equiptment) and dead (added weight) being under the race condition book/program weight than being over. Underweight the trainer may think there is an advantage; overweight concerns just the bettors and maybe the owner and may be more than what the racing-wide weight chart calls for as a maximum safe weight for the horse to carry.
Any tracks I have been to have a board you have to go look at to see if any horses are carrying more than their assigned weight.

Steve

01-29-2006, 05:55 PM

Hey guys, thanks for the time and effort in helping the kid.

StevTW

ronwins

01-29-2006, 07:53 PM

ken

01-29-2006, 10:52 PM

ronwins

01-30-2006, 09:11 AM

You wrote a fine post- I just wanted to give an added note on weight. When I first saw assigned weights, I did not know about bug weights or dead weight. I still do not know if there is a limit to how many pounds over assigned weight a horse can have?

Ken,

I guess I was getting to deep about weight,
...one must address the issue of the bug boys weight,
if one uses weight in their handicapping.

How many times have you heard, lets say from public handicappers,
this or that horse is getting weight from another horse in the race,
...let's say they both raced at the very same weight last out (111 lb) in the same race.
...today one horse gets, (111lb to 116lb) lets say 5lb shift in weight (getting weight from another horse)...

Now we know in the 1st. race we used a bug of 10lb, but the rider's riding weight is 114lb he can't use all of his 10lb allowance, but the horse is still listed at 111lb.

Now jump to todays race...in the pp in drf the horse is listed at 111lb.
(why?...the trainer used the 10lb allowance for the bug boy, so now he can run at 111lbs not at 121lbs...)

with me so far...so when the public handicapper say this horse is getting 5lb weight from another horse...NOT SO...only 2lb ****f in weight.

now why is this inportant...a rule of thumb in handicapping is the number "5"
...5 fifths equal a length, 5 wide equal a length, 5lb EQUAL A LENGTH.

...Blaa,Blaa,Bla...

btw the bug boy after one year of riding becomes a Jockey.
one year and one day after the rider step foot on the race trackhe can now be call a Jockey with NO weight allowance, he now is an equal, but without the bug...who would the trainer now pick to ride his horse, a pat day, a gary stevens, or a jerry baily....the bug boy better be better then a good rider or
see you later...

ken

01-30-2006, 11:16 AM

Yes, a weight shift can play a role, more so if the races were the same post position, distance, pace, early speed, track firmness, etc. I think a "holding" or slower track makes weight more important.
What I see sometimes is a horse having a limit to assigned weight it can carry and perform well in a route. I look for that always just in case.
_________________
1 length=1/5 second- I have come to believe 8' is used by chart callers because a cord of wood and most lumber is 8' length, so most early fences were, and the Fontana Safety rail is, and close enough for horse length.
1/5 is used because pocket watch were 12 hours and 4 marks between them, so stopwatches were made the same way.
1 length (8')=1/5 second is 40' per second, is 660 ' (1 furlong)=16.5 seconds, is 6 furlongs in 99 seconds (1:36.00).