MOST OVER/UNDERRATED JOCKS, TRAINERS..top 3 just off the cuff--explain if u want

[Mister Sanderson]

These are some of the most overrated and underrated jocks and trainers that I believe have surfaced in the recent past. My memory jars back vividly at least 10 years. At my peak viewing, I visited the track 3-4 times a week, almost always weekly though no matter when.

OVERRATED -- JOCKS
1. Jerry Bailey .. I mean he's good, but he's not THAT much better than any of the best. I would argue that many top riders and some unknowns do a much better job moving up horses. If I could take 10 jockeys to ride my horses all in the same race, he wouldn't make my top 10. Plus, he kills a horse's price at the window. Pass. (I do believe he is better on turf. I much prefer him on that surface) I know I'll take some flack, but I'm a grinder and I see what I see.
2. Aaron Gryder .. Never been big on him. We used to call him "No Rider Gryder" in college. He still gets live mounts, especially in NY and some now in Cali, but unless he's sitting on the dead speed with triple class edge, I love to pass on him. Weak on late runners, and anything else for that matter.
3. Curt Borque .. I love Steve Borque, but Curt blows[/COLOR].

OVERRATED -- TRAINERS
1. LUKAS .. Simply put: He is a consistent disappointment. Never that I can remember has someone done so little with so much talent. I mean look at all of the best studs in the states. He trained em' all. Most of them were done at 2 as racers. Someone else should have that precocious Overbrook and Lewis stock. He's great to bet against at the windows, except for the big big days (i.e. triple crown, breeders cup), but hey those other days it's like fish in a barrel beating him. He's a far notch below even the average now on a consistent basis. HE'S DONE.
2. Brothers .. Almost always overbet, his stock of talent is always among the elite. And many of these horses turn out as underachievers in my book. Again, I'm not referring to the class of animal he's had such as First Samurai and Pulpit, I'm talking day to day mid-level chaimers to allowance types. And it's usually too obvious when he's got one ready for a win. I'm a Lasix man, he often runs his without (L). So many angles to consistently beat him.
3. Nick Hines .. I like his entusiasm, but here rarely even can get one to hold its form.. I've never seen one improve off the claim for him except a bottom claimer at Del Mar last summer. That shocked me. I think he's got alot to learn. If I trained out there, I would look for his best claiming talent, nab them, and give to Mitchell, Mullins, etc..

UNDERRATED -- JOCKS
1. Jon Court .. great on speed. Frankel should be castrated for taking him off Leriodsdesanimoux (thats close enough). He's great on speed. And I love the 1st time Court angle. It equals quality ride plus better price. He just rarely gets good mounts. Lukas gave him a pick up mount as Folklore's entrymate a few weeks ago on a horse that would've been 20 or 25 to 1. What happened? Folklore quit on a lone lead.. Jonny saved Lukas' *** getting up his rat entrymate. $2 million HONG KONG Cup on a O'Neill Allowance Horse. Beat the best horse in Japan by a nose. Never was ahead of that horse at any point of the race, before or after, except right at the WIRE. HE CAN RIDE.
2. Raphael Bejarano .. I think he's the best in the sport. Period.
3. A host of others Steve Borque in LA.. Filemon Rodriguez in TX.. Carlos Nieto in PN. P VAL (he's all the billing, and then some)..

UNDERRATED -- TRAINERS
1. DICK DUTROW .. He improves all import horses (i.e. Saint Liam), and gives you a consistent chance every time he throws one out there. He deserves the "Pletcher" attention because he does it for a higher percentage with less stock. Talented juvenile, your choice, Dutrow or Lukas? PLEASE..
2. LARRY JONES .. From my neck of the woods.. How about the emergence of Island Sand who I believe came from an excellent trainer Anthony Dutrow's barn. Check out her improvement. Josh's Madelyn, this horse has outrun her potential for over 3 years now. He's top notch and still relatively unknown. He has a small barn and there are rumors that he's a little finicky and a bit of a control freak. Fine, he wins. Who cares!
3. JOE CAIN .. Has routinely baad stock.. and wins, wins, wins. He only big time horse of note was Private Horde, who was in BC Sprint and won a big one at Saratoga. Cain just recently won Turfway meet I believe. I've been to his training quarters in central Ky.. it's immaculate..basically ran by he and his wife and little else help.. He's very good!

Write back.. I'm interested to hear what you guys think. THANKS SO MUCH.

[ken]

Those I know about-
Overated jockeys- Bailey unless early and inside post; Russell Baze- no moves lately Stewart Elliot- back to the small-time, has to ride home tracks.
Overated trainers- Hollendorfer- gives up on claimers too quickly; And many former qtrhorse trainers.
Underated jockeys- Tyler Baze needs best mounts in stakes; Garrett Gomez this year still gets a price; Chance Rollins- knows his tracks, finally getting good rides.
Underated trainers- Art Sherman- always consistent; Bill Mott- a big favorite of mine; Generally female trainers- outperforming expectations.

[JohnnyB]

when was stew elliot ever overrated? he was aboard a wonderful horse in smarty jones. he's not overrated...

[meatheadfonts]

Joan Scott, Female Star In The Making,gentlemen!
Jose Lezcano, The Other Young And Rising Jockey From Peru

[Mister Sanderson]

yes,
i agree.. stew elliott was a noname and is still relatively unknown. And..... I think that he is very, very good. I think at summer Mth meet he moves all of his mounts up a step.. Very good sprint rider.. I also think Russell the Muscle is still very solid. I'm not sure if his style is suited for anything other than Cali racing (speed speed speed) but he's good at what he does. He's still ringing up the W's, on mostly cheap claiming pigs. I'd have to think he would be successful elsewhere, too. I would agree with Gomez, he's very solid.

[ken]

Russekk baze got off his last 3 mounts Thursday due to a bad back.

[Mister Sanderson]

Another Jock who rides great for me is Javier Santiago.. horses seem to respond for him. Any Maryland followers out there? Im out of touch with that circuit.. I like the big boys at last years Calder meet... Castro and Cruz

[elwood]

What do you think about Scott Lake? This guy must have a million horses. He's always among the earnings leaders in NY, MD, PHL, and DEL mainly because he sends so many out. I think he's all about quantity, thats obvious. He's like the complete opposite of Michael Dickinson, who prefers quality. It's hard for me to like a guy like Lake because I think he does'nt give a damn about the horses.

[Mister Sanderson]

Lake injects speed into his claimers. Period. Fact: His claimers normally improve from what they were. Fact: He normally turns at least a break even or small profit off his claims. Fact: He turned a lifetime sprint claimer into a deserving bred. cup sprint favorite... ran 2nd or 3rd. Fiction: I can prove he's dirty. SO FACT: He deserves my respect. The name of the game is winning not nuturing. I hate to say it, but quality doesn't pay the bills, especially for the small time owner, and Lake provides speed and quantity and lots of it. :D

[Mister Stigg]

Refresh my memory, Mister Sanderson. Who was Lake's Sprint favorite? Just curious.

[elwood]

Shake You Down

[Mister Sanderson]

im pretty sure he was out of montbrook...i know the mare was mauvin gway by rajab, but i cant remember the horses' name, it'll come to me... he was a gelding .. i think he's still runnin'.. not the same though

[Mister Sanderson]

ITS SHAKE YOU DOWN stiggs.... remember him?

[JohnnyB]

when lake has jock jose flores up at philly park, put your money down...but the price will be short.

[Mister Sanderson]

also, if he has one that has cracked a 25-35K BEL or AQU claiming win right off his claim, he'll ship to DEL for a conditioned alw... usually money in the bank.

[Mister Sanderson]

K. O'Connell, R. Ziadie, are there any good trainers in Florida? I know Kirk Ziadie was solid last year , and White was typically good.. Its not my most familiar grounds.. i mean croft, azurapura, WHO IS DECENT?:eek:

[mister zesterhouse]

gay but a good trainer. Not sure though. Harold Rose was bad and I think now dead.

[Mister Sanderson]

thanks, very helpful.

[mister zesterhouse]

with a 50-1. He would've had Victory Gallop on the lead.

[mister zesterhouse]

I'll put Kevin Krigger in the mix; I always liked him. Gary Birzer. Rodney Prescott. Lester Knight. Jim Graham (cut teeth at Ellis; good kid; hardworker;Irish;Bono).

Scrussel Baze on the lead is seeyalaternitz
Court paid an awful lot for Red's tits;

PVal rules but has to shave the pubes
I know Bejarano's the best but I still always lose.

[Mister Sanderson]

u lose because of genetics... you're poorly bred.

[Mister Sanderson]

:cool: I'VE BEEN BIG ON DUTROW FOR A GOOD WHILE NOW..IM AWARE OF HIS PAST TROUBLES WITH MEDS, WHO ELSE UP THERE HAS THAT KKIND OF NAME.. I HEARD ABOUT GREG MARTIN A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO... WHO IS GOOD AND WHO SUCKS AS WELL....

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

There is a rider named E Cosme at Tampa, He has ridden several horses for me and is a good rider, I havent seen him for a while..Trainers who work hard are the MOST underated.The guys that hang in the Clubhouse "stealing" other peoples owners and dont do anyting at the barn get ALL the glory.

[mister zesterhouse]

Cosme is underrated--if he has a live mount at Arlington he scores. Are you implying that stealing owners is unethical (ha!)? You didn't really think Bill White was going to keep High Fly did you.

[Mister Sanderson]

JUST WENT ALL MY BAD LIST AFTER HE TORTURED SIGFRETO AT SA AND STOPPED MY PICK 6.. IT WAS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE.. non debateable. SO ALL OF YOU GOMEZ FANATICS JUST REVIEW THE 4th RACE AT SA ON 2-8 AND TELL ME HOW GOOD HE IS.. i'm disappointed to say the least..

[Rudy]

Overrated Jockeys..........Top two on my list #1....T.D Houghton always does well at GreatLakes and the prevoius Detroit Race Course gets an awful lot of mounts at Tampa and can't win a title here...but gotta like the way he came back from his injury #2 ....Jerry Bailey,couldn't win a race on his retirement day....by the way I have some shudders I need some help with anyone have his number??? He did ride Cigar one of the greatest horses...and he was man enough to say he was the reason Cigar lost the win streak in California........
...Overrated Trainers........#1....Don(over the limit)Rice now we finally know why he was leading trainer at the Downs and couldn't win anywhere else....#2....Lukas has to be on the list for the fact taht he ruined alot of young horses to have a few good ones..........
.................Underrated Jockeys....Bridgemohan..went to Arlington and gave riding lessons.this past summer......JJ Castellano.......hard working rider good value/play....J Velez steps up his riding in stakes races....last but not least F.Amonte...........the guy will win a race at Tampa even if he has to stay til closing day....the guys got guts to ride at his age going 30mph+ being followed by an ambulance...........
.................Underated Trainers.........Ray Tamargo had a horse named Oh So Striking set track records at TBD then brought the horse to Churchill Downs and set a track record there. Had another named Neon Shadow and Magal good stakes horses...just waiting for the next good one to come along...Also have to mention Ronnie Allen,Frank Generazio ,Sam Cronk and Duane Knipe have to be on that list..they're not the best but they grind out solid winning percentages elsewhere....As for female trainers Joan Scott,O'Connell,Cibelli,Ruth Cook take good care of there horses

[Tbone]

Brisnet recently(last week)conducted a poll asking who you would feel most confident wagering on of the four jockeys that have recently retired.Pincay,Day,Stevens and Bailey.Bailey was the peoples choice by a good margin.He has, for a long time been the money rider, for alot of outfits.

[theknightsky]

Joan Scott, Female Star In The Making,gentlemen!
Jose Lezcano, The Other Young And Rising Jockey From Peru


Lezcano is panamanian not peruvian ala bejerano.

[theknightsky]

gay but a good trainer. Not sure though. Harold Rose was bad and I think now dead.



WHERE in the world do you get your 411 on whose gay zipperhead your local male strip club?????????????

[theknightsky]

I'll put Kevin Krigger in the mix; I always liked him. Gary Birzer. Rodney Prescott. Lester Knight. Jim Graham (cut teeth at Ellis; good kid; hardworker;Irish;Bono).

Scrussel Baze on the lead is seeyalaternitz
Court paid an awful lot for Red's tits;

PVal rules but has to shave the pubes
I know Bejarano's the best but I still always lose.




Kevin Krigger are you for real????????????? Chester house get a clue.The kid had such a bright future and has done nothing but underachieve.

[satisfyingwager]

gay but a good trainer. Not sure though. Harold Rose was bad and I think now dead.


You are a class act. Calling one guy a homo and ripping a dead guy.

Ziadie isn't gay, not that there is anything wrong with it. I hope for your sake you handicap horses better than people.

[Mister Sanderson]

thanks for the reply, i mostly agree with you except on a few of the trainers (O'Connell for one), but appreciate the reply.. SIDENOTE: I certainly hope Bailey took the blame .. small field, rateable horse, and a speed freak named Siphon blasting and dueling through 1:08 and change fractions at 1 1/4 miles on a blistering summer day.. Let's get serious.. set a length or two back while Siphon heats it up and turn him loose entering the stretch.. let the best horse take over.. if he loses to the speed (Siphon, who was very good in his own right), then he just loses. But you're right, he did own up.. and overall, I respect his ability. thanks..:D

[dark owl]

Did I actually read that Bill Mott and Rick Dutrow are underrated??? Very good trainers but I must have a different understanding of the word underrated.

[Mister Sanderson]

i didnt write about mott.. but i think that dutrow is the frankel, pletcher category and is not known at that level... instead a guy like lukas is praised as that.. obviously, he is recognized, i just think nationally he's not that big a figure... but i guess the Cup probably opened some eyes.. i would be interested in hearing your expertise..

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

Did I actually read that Bill Mott and Rick Dutrow are underrated??? Very good trainers but I must have a different understanding of the word underrated.

The "Big Time" trainers are are numbers guys, IF one horse falls by the wayside, They have another to fill the stall.When you have the numbers, The wins will come. A good trainer with a small stable can get more starts per horse.A big outfit is more apt to hurt a horse as he is just a number.

[dark owl]

Maybe Dutrow is not "name" trainer to the KY derby only crowd but if you have a clue about the game and dont know him, you dont have a clue.
Lukas is not held in the same esteem that he once was. Not really overrated within the game because he really isn't much of a factor at the higher levels any longer.

McShell- are you saying that you dont think Mott and Dutrow are good trainers?

[Mister Sanderson]

ok..i'll accept that..i dont think that dutrow is placed that high on most scales (frankel, pletcher), but its not really that important.. if he's close to as highly thought of as you say, then that's close enough. lukas: i've mentioned before, totally agree with that.. but they're ready for the big, big ones with him still. thanks for the banter... sanderson; out!

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

Maybe Dutrow is not "name" trainer to the KY derby only crowd but if you have a clue about the game and dont know him, you dont have a clue.
Lukas is not held in the same esteem that he once was. Not really overrated within the game because he really isn't much of a factor at the higher levels any longer.

McShell- are you saying that you dont think Mott and Dutrow are good trainers?

I think they are great trainers!! What would make you think otherwise?..Remember this, You must have the horse to win the race, Biggest thing is having the knowing what do do with your horse.The horses make the trainer!!

[dark owl]

I think they are great trainers!! What would make you think otherwise?..Remember this, You must have the horse to win the race, Biggest thing is having the knowing what do do with your horse.The horses make the trainer!!


This is true !

[mister zesterhouse]

not underrated, he's rated. He's not on Pletcher/Frankel level because he still has those 'pathetic' claimers. Dutrow is sometimes overbet, sometimes underbet, sometimes bet about right. Pletcher/Frankel are almost always overbet.

Lukas did win the Belmont with a rat...Commendable (I had a $5 tri if Aptitude wins).

****ee:)

[McSchell_Racing_Inc]

Im sure you have cashed a few tickets on them "Pathetic Claimers"....Shame on you!!

[mister zesterhouse]

The claiming game is 90 percent of the game. Most allowance horses eventually become claimers or end too injured to race. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the claiming game. One of my fave horse is Nates Colony (9 Year Old): he turns up on my watch list at Sunland now. He lost by a jump last week (for 5k).

[Mister Sanderson]

I'll put Kevin Krigger in the mix; I always liked him. Gary Birzer. Rodney Prescott. Lester Knight. Jim Graham (cut teeth at Ellis; good kid; hardworker;Irish;Bono).

Scrussel Baze on the lead is seeyalaternitz
Court paid an awful lot for Red's tits;

PVal rules but has to shave the pubes
I know Bejarano's the best but I still always lose.

I LIKE THE COURT REFERENCE,, ASK JINKS FIRES IF HE DOES TOO...

PVALANDHISPUBES (GREAT NAME FOR A HORSE)

[mister zesterhouse]

Kick out some Krigger stats.

[Mister Sanderson]

KRIGGER, AND HIS BOY KERWIN JOHN MIGHT COULD USE A CHANGE OF ATMOSPHERE... HOW BOUT YOU THROW THAT SALES PITCH AT EM YOUR SO GOOD AT AND AGENT UP!! BRING EM BACK OVER HERE AND ROLLEM AT ELLIS THIS SUMMER...:cool:

[Mister Sanderson]

Linda Fisher.. who is this.. she has been training some horses recently claimed at AQU... yesterday she raced a horse just claimed off of Lake.. really ran a bad one.. WHO IS THIS WOMAN???? (jeopardy ...doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo DOO! dah doo):eek:

[Mister Sanderson]

anybody, any of you cali guys have any information or background on this new bug, Martin Garcia??? Did he just come from nowhere?? I see the big trainers out there putting him on their #1... WHO is this guy??

[poslla]

I emphatically agree with your opinion of Lukas, How low must your win percentage go before an owner realizes you're incompetent. A rank beginner
could win with the stock he's had over the years. He is just a trial and error trainer.

[deltasports]

I emphatically agree with your opinion of Lukas, How low must your win percentage go before an owner realizes you're incompetent. A rank beginner
could win with the stock he's had over the years. He is just a trial and error trainer.


HE CANT USE THE STUFF HE WAS USING WHEN HE WON ALL THE CLASSICS AND BREEDERS CUPS

[Mister Sanderson]

HE CANT USE THE STUFF HE WAS USING WHEN HE WON ALL THE CLASSICS AND BREEDERS CUPS

a very true statement, DELTA. But, also I think everyone has their "primes". Like Funny Cide's prime looks like it was when he was 2 and 3, and John Henry's prime was when he was 10 or so... Lukas is just out of his prime.. When things were clicking, he had the best clients, horses, help, and fortune. Now, years later, its over.. Sometimes technology and just the "times" catch up with guys and either A> they dont make the proper adjustments.. B> they dont want to make the proper adjustments or C> they just flat out lose some of that fire to compete and win... I think his slide is more than just the drugs, although I can't rule that out as being highly significant.. But if you watch his horses, they all seem to run the same way... they run along the lead usually at top speed and stay in the same path.. he never has closers.. I mean c'mon, a good coach always mazimizes talent.. and his horses run with no personality.. they look like "cookie cutters" out there. OWNERS: just make a simple trade to Pletcher or Asmussen or anybody, and watch what these horses do!!! ITS SCARY to think the improvement.gah;

[mister zesterhouse]

easily. No small feat. It ain't Del Mar but it ain't a bush track either. The guy's got a big future.hh)

[mister zesterhouse]

let's get this straight. It's tantamount to nerd or motorhead. It's falderal. Harld Rose trained Hal's Hope, one of the coolest horses of the last 10 years. I love front runners like Hal's Hope and Buck's Boy. John McKee knows a thing or two about wind resistance - cut teeth at River Downs -
how bout that ride on the Lawyer!a:

[Mister Sanderson]

ZESTER, we all know you're a bigot here, stop trying to hide it!! U must be, youre from KY... wait a second, so am I. No, Zester is a friend of mine, and although he may be a bit over the top and at times jerkish, he's no bigot. He, like I, we're both equal opportunity haters!!! bf.

[Darren]

Bailey was my nemesis, anytime I played him he LOST, everytime I bet against him, he WON, If I needed him for a fairly decent pick 3 it didn't matter what his odds were he would run second, I call him a bum cause he screwed me over countless times over.. I guess he's not a bad jockey though, alwaya gave his all for Mott that's for sure...

[Kincsem62]

I believe he is speaking of Bluesthestandard.

[Mister Sanderson]

I believe he is speaking of Bluesthestandard.


who is he???? and what are you referring to???

[svede7]

Did you all forget about Bobby Frankel? Probably one of the premier trainers in the business.

[Mister Sanderson]

Did you all forget about Bobby Frankel? Probably one of the premier trainers in the business.

...the subject if you read the 1st page or title is "Most Underrated Overrated Trainers/Jocks. I think you could hardly call Frankel Underrated.. and to call him Overrated is ridiculous.. check out his numbers..

[mister zesterhouse]

and any horse by Capote or Personal. Frankel is so overrated he's underrated like Bellicheck.

[Tairaterces]

anybody, any of you cali guys have any information or background on this new bug, Martin Garcia??? Did he just come from nowhere?? I see the big trainers out there putting him on their #1... WHO is this guy??

This is almost a Hollywood story . . . he's a farmboy from Mexico . . so did ride horses when he was younger. Came to California . . .got a job in a deli in Alameda County . .lady who owns deli has sport horses . . . . and let him ride . . . . .he got a job as an exercise rider at Pleasanton and he rode his first winner in August '05 . . . .he is a phenom . .has a great clock in his head . . . .very short like Jorge Chavez . . . . . . . .he is still very, very green . . . . in the stakes race @GG he rode and was on the lead and bounced the horse on the rail and Cause to Believe cruised on by . . . . . . if you watch the race closely before the bounce Garcia fumbles with his whip and looses control of the horse thus bouncing off the rail . . . . . . . .a lot of people are pushing him to go to SoCal but is way too soon for that . . . . . .Kevin Krigger tried that and they chewed him up and spit him out down there . . . . . . not a great confidence builder if you know what I mean.

Tairaterces

PS: Martin Garcia still works in the deli a couple of nights a week . . . .

[Mister Sanderson]

..that's suprisizing!! you would think winning the BM meet and winning the current GG MEET would keep him away from selling MEAT.

[mister zesterhouse]

MG should stay in NoCal I agree. Or he could come to Ellis this summer and dominate. Remeber JC Gonzales?

[Kincsem62]

who is he???? and what are you referring to???

My mistake... wrong horse. Bluesthestandard was not Lakes' horse. That was Shake You Down, and they were 2nd and 3rd, respectively, in 2003 BC Sprint.

[Mister Sanderson]

HOW ABOUT RENEE SCHLESINGER AND STEPHANIE BEATTY... don't follow Charlestown too close, but last I looked, these 2 chicks were scorching that place.. Delta?? anybody else know bout these chicks??hh) :D

[Mister Sanderson]

IS IT A REBIRTH IN NY???

KENT D. IS IN NY RIDING FULL TIME... NOT A TON OF MOUNTS YET.. BUT MORE EACH DAY .. DUTROW HAS BEEN RIDING HIM SOME..

I USED TO CALL HIM THE "BIG GAME HUNTER"... HE SEEMS TO COME UP BIG IN THE BIG RACES, I LIKE HIM ON TURF, NOT SO MUCH ON DIRT.

what's the word??

[Mister Sanderson]

.. I hate to openly rip these guys.. but I havent seen one of his horses win a race since the collapse of the Berlin Wall. About the only way this guy wins is to claim a $25 k horse off a win at CD and re-enter him fo $4 k at Ellis .. holds on by a nose... I'm sorry but certain trainers seems bad. this is one.gah;

[Mister Sanderson]

THIS KID IS GREAT... HE'S GOT THE CHARISMA AND PERSONALITY TO TAKE OVER THE "BAILEY ESQ" POSITION IN THE HORSE RACING PANTHEON OF STARS, AND THE ABILITY. I THINK HE IS A VERY GOOD RIDER, ON ANY SURFACE, AND IS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER. I REALIZE THE LRL PIM CIRCUIT IS NOT ON EVERYONE'S RADAR, BUT IF YOURE AT THE TRACK... JUST WATCH THIS KID.. HE JUST WON THE FEDERICO TESIO STAKES FOR THE 3rd TIME IN 3 ATTEMPTS. hh)

IF TV IS LOOKING FOR MOVIE STAR TYPES TO PROMOTE THE GAME, RYAN IS THE ONE TO CATCH. PLUS, HE'S GOT GAME!bc(

[mister zesterhouse]

fogelsonger should come to ellis

[Mister Sanderson]

THIS KID IS GREAT... HE'S GOT THE CHARISMA AND PERSONALITY TO TAKE OVER THE "BAILEY ESQ" POSITION IN THE HORSE RACING PANTHEON OF STARS, AND THE ABILITY. I THINK HE IS A VERY GOOD RIDER, ON ANY SURFACE, AND IS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER. I REALIZE THE LRL PIM CIRCUIT IS NOT ON EVERYONE'S RADAR, BUT IF YOURE AT THE TRACK... JUST WATCH THIS KID.. HE JUST WON THE FEDERICO TESIO STAKES FOR THE 3rd TIME IN 3 ATTEMPTS. hh)

IF TV IS LOOKING FOR MOVIE STAR TYPES TO PROMOTE THE GAME, RYAN IS THE ONE TO CATCH. PLUS, HE'S GOT GAME!bc(
has a good recent past of big timers coming from there. Dominguez and Prado, enough said.

[Mister Sanderson]

.. I hate to openly rip these guys.. but I havent seen one of his horses win a race since the collapse of the Berlin Wall. About the only way this guy wins is to claim a $25 k horse off a win at CD and re-enter him fo $4 k at Ellis .. holds on by a nose... I'm sorry but certain trainers seems bad. this is one.gah;
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// NO FREAKIN' WAY MOQUETT WON THE STEPHEN FOSTER.. CONGRATS TO WHO I FEEL IS STILL ONE OF THE WORST TRAINERS ON THE SOUTHERN/MID-WESTERN CIRCUIT RON MOQUETT FOR HIS CHURCHILL LOVIN, GROUND SAVING, ZITO TRAINED WINNER. Ah, I guess I'll throw the guy a bone... At least in the few weeks he had him, he didn't make him worse --------- YET!!

Moquett still sux.
bf.

[ken]

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// NO FREAKIN' WAY MOQUETT WON THE STEPHEN FOSTER.. CONGRATS TO WHO I FEEL IS STILL ONE OF THE WORST TRAINERS ON THE SOUTHERN/MID-WESTERN CIRCUIT RON MOQUETT FOR HIS CHURCHILL LOVIN, GROUND SAVING, ZITO TRAINED WINNER. Ah, I guess I'll throw the guy a bone... At least in the few weeks he had him, he didn't make him worse --------- YET!!

Moquett still sux.
bf.
_________
How is he at 1st race for him as a trainer?

[sjh0825]

I lived in Louisville for years....always thought Pat Day was WAY over rated....

[TopDog]

Javier Castellano on the turf is one of the best with any horse regardless of odds. As is Rene Douglas.

Michael Matz even before Barbaro was a solid underrated trainer who consistently put his stock where they belonged to succeed.

[gestalt]

These are some of the most overrated and underrated jocks and trainers that I believe have surfaced in the recent past. My memory jars back vividly at least 10 years. At my peak viewing, I visited the track 3-4 times a week, almost always weekly though no matter when.

OVERRATED -- JOCKS
1. Jerry Bailey .. I mean he's good, but he's not THAT much better than any of the best. I would argue that many top riders and some unknowns do a much better job moving up horses. If I could take 10 jockeys to ride my horses all in the same race, he wouldn't make my top 10. Plus, he kills a horse's price at the window. Pass. (I do believe he is better on turf. I much prefer him on that surface) I know I'll take some flack, but I'm a grinder and I see what I see.
2. Aaron Gryder .. Never been big on him. We used to call him "No Rider Gryder" in college. He still gets live mounts, especially in NY and some now in Cali, but unless he's sitting on the dead speed with triple class edge, I love to pass on him. Weak on late runners, and anything else for that matter.
3. Curt Borque .. I love Steve Borque, but Curt blows[/color].

OVERRATED -- TRAINERS
1. LUKAS .. Simply put: He is a consistent disappointment. Never that I can remember has someone done so little with so much talent. I mean look at all of the best studs in the states. He trained em' all. Most of them were done at 2 as racers. Someone else should have that precocious Overbrook and Lewis stock. He's great to bet against at the windows, except for the big big days (i.e. triple crown, breeders cup), but hey those other days it's like fish in a barrel beating him. He's a far notch below even the average now on a consistent basis. HE'S DONE.
2. Brothers .. Almost always overbet, his stock of talent is always among the elite. And many of these horses turn out as underachievers in my book. Again, I'm not referring to the class of animal he's had such as First Samurai and Pulpit, I'm talking day to day mid-level chaimers to allowance types. And it's usually too obvious when he's got one ready for a win. I'm a Lasix man, he often runs his without (L). So many angles to consistently beat him.
3. Nick Hines .. I like his entusiasm, but here rarely even can get one to hold its form.. I've never seen one improve off the claim for him except a bottom claimer at Del Mar last summer. That shocked me. I think he's got alot to learn. If I trained out there, I would look for his best claiming talent, nab them, and give to Mitchell, Mullins, etc..

UNDERRATED -- JOCKS
1. Jon Court .. great on speed. Frankel should be castrated for taking him off Leriodsdesanimoux (thats close enough). He's great on speed. And I love the 1st time Court angle. It equals quality ride plus better price. He just rarely gets good mounts. Lukas gave him a pick up mount as Folklore's entrymate a few weeks ago on a horse that would've been 20 or 25 to 1. What happened? Folklore quit on a lone lead.. Jonny saved Lukas' *** getting up his rat entrymate. $2 million HONG KONG Cup on a O'Neill Allowance Horse. Beat the best horse in Japan by a nose. Never was ahead of that horse at any point of the race, before or after, except right at the WIRE. HE CAN RIDE.
2. Raphael Bejarano .. I think he's the best in the sport. Period.
3. A host of others Steve Borque in LA.. Filemon Rodriguez in TX.. Carlos Nieto in PN. P VAL (he's all the billing, and then some)..

UNDERRATED -- TRAINERS
1. DICK DUTROW .. He improves all import horses (i.e. Saint Liam), and gives you a consistent chance every time he throws one out there. He deserves the "Pletcher" attention because he does it for a higher percentage with less stock. Talented juvenile, your choice, Dutrow or Lukas? PLEASE..
2. LARRY JONES .. From my neck of the woods.. How about the emergence of Island Sand who I believe came from an excellent trainer Anthony Dutrow's barn. Check out her improvement. Josh's Madelyn, this horse has outrun her potential for over 3 years now. He's top notch and still relatively unknown. He has a small barn and there are rumors that he's a little finicky and a bit of a control freak. Fine, he wins. Who cares!
3. JOE CAIN .. Has routinely baad stock.. and wins, wins, wins. He only big time horse of note was Private Horde, who was in BC Sprint and won a big one at Saratoga. Cain just recently won Turfway meet I believe. I've been to his training quarters in central Ky.. it's immaculate..basically ran by he and his wife and little else help.. He's very good!

Write back.. I'm interested to hear what you guys think. THANKS SO MUCH. great piece, love it, in all my years, the Oscar B. story is the best, he would claim a horse, move it up in allowance company in 3 days and win the race time after time. His juice was the best and betters loved him, money in the bank. The Passero story at GP with that string of winners and the bloodbath about the testical rub is my second best. I enjoy watching a competent jock at work, the horse is learning something, yes, even on the outcall. Good luck, keep it coming.

[Mister Sanderson]

got any new ones to add to this??

I was at the track a few years ago and asked my buddy who almost exclusively follows OP if he had ever heard of Dennis Good. I wondered how he was off the claim; he just tagged one from the Cole Norman barn. He said, "I'll put it to you this way, GOOD is BAD." -- his statement has proven to be accurate!;;'

[ken]

Where is he now?

[ryanba]

Underrated trainer: Tim Yakteen

[Mister Sanderson]

TIME I ADD A NEW ONE TO THE LIST OF HAVE'S AND HAVE NOT'S.........

Have nots -- Eric Guilott ... absolutely horrendous. Trains for big money outfit Southern Equine Stable.. Most of the time they will claim one for $50 k and Guilott will fart them into a $20k claimer off the buy.. And here's the meat of the story: they get blown up and run off the track in for half their tag buy.... you cant look at him statistically and probably tell this, but he is pure LEMONs when it comes to training.

Haves -- Wayne Catalano... Former Asst to the legend JVB has branched off and is now an almost certainty to win everyrace he enters a horse in at AP. Off the claim he is dynamite, first time in his barn: dynamite. Sprinters, Turfers, Routers, he just wins baby. HERE'S WISHING HIS MENTOR JVB (Jack Van Berg) the best of luck with his future stock. I've seen enough video to know I like the old guy and want to see him have one more good one!!

Good luck snakes$)and by the way: if any of you guys disagree or have something to add or your own opinions of who sux and who rules, let me know... but tell me why, or i'll shred you like i do Mister Stigg on an hourly basis...

[mister zesterhouse]

Knapp, Glatt, Hess, Carava getting eaten alive by the big boys right now: thank you Fairplex. What happened to Paco Gonazalez, wow is he done.

[Mister Sanderson]

Scott Craigmyle Really Sux. Just Won His First At Fpx Yesterday. This Guy Is A Leaveout Under Any Situation, If He Beats Ya, He Beats Ya

[mister zesterhouse]

Mr. Leparoux lost his bug--done?hh)

[mister zesterhouse]

Willie Martinez can still ride; big day today including pick-up mount Cohiba Miss. Although Vic Lebron should have been allowed to ride this draw-off G3, a big Willie fan.$)

[Mister Stigg]

Mr. Leparoux lost his bug--done?hh)

Just getting started!

[Mister Sanderson]

One guy that gets overshadowed by the success of Martin Garcia and Julien Leparoux is Luis Martinez, Jr. He is compiling some impressive stats in Northern California and is highly complimented by trainers out there. Also, Keep your eye on Mario Madrid. He is a busy kid. He had a nice Mounmouth meet and is riding at Belmont during the day and the Meadowlands at night. Dutrow and Co. have been using him frequently.;;'

[mister zesterhouse]

James Graham underrated--turf monster. Cut teeth at Ellis.a:

[Mister Sanderson]

James Graham underrated--turf monster. Cut teeth at Ellis.a:Chris Decarlo, Pletcher's number 2 man, is an excellent turf rider.... very underrated.. very nice guy

[scottsdad]

Overrated Jocks
Baze
Bailey
Eliott

Underrated Jocks
Gomez
Bejarano
Mario Madrid

Best In The Business
Edgar Prado

[Mister Sanderson]

Overrated Jocks
Baze
Bailey
Eliott

Underrated Jocks
Gomez
Bejarano
Mario Madrid

Best In The Business
Edgar Prado
I strongly disagree with your Overrated except Bailey, I think he is a bit Overrated though not a slouch. Russell Baze IMO is a true monster. A hard-working tough old chap, who laces em up to win every race. And he rides the hell out of them for 3rd when he's beat; a true pro. I don't fault him for staying in NoCal for his career; traditionally good racing, and he has made a great life for himself there. He will have earned that all time wins title when he surpasses Laffit soon, and anyone with the most all time wins deserves my props... and HE WILL annihilate that record after its all said and done... I can't fault a lunch pail guy who is not about the spotlight, but loves his job.
Stew Elliott is not even know or discussed, so I can't see how he is overrated... I like him too!!

I can't get enough praise to Bejarano, he and Leparoux could put Kentucky racing on the map again as the tops.... if you have noticed these guys are in a dogfight for the Keeneland title, just like they were at the last Churchill meet... This rivalry is great because I think they are so skilled, far far better (and more interesting) than the Day/Sellers matchup we got around 7 or 8 years ago.

And the names just roll off the tongue don't they: RA-FA-EL BE-JA-RANO and JU-LIEN LE-PA-ROUX

[Mister Sanderson]

AS HE EMBARKS ON THE RECORD, I'M SURE I'LL SEE SOME THREADS ABOUT HOW HE HASN'T EARNED IT AND BLAH BLAH!!!!! WHAT ARE YOU GONNA SAY WHEN RUSSELL HITS 12,000 OR 15,000, CAUSE HE AIN'T STOPPING SOON.

HE'S A NICE GUY THAT KEEPS HIS MOUTH SHUT AND IS A TOTAL PROFESSIONAL. HE RIDES HARD ALL THE TIME, AND DESERVES ALL THE ACCOLADES HE HAS COMING HIS WAY.

HERE'S TO YOU RUSSELL, FOR ANOTHER 5,000 TO COMEbf.

[djunior]

I am not going to classify any jock as Over-rated as everyday they are competiting in a daily duty that in a matter of seconds there career could be over.
Under-rated; Jose Lezcano, one of the best. He rode Deputy Glitters who lost by a nose to Bluegrass Cat than came back 5 weeks later and beat him for one example.
Eddie Castro is getting a lot of publicty now but he has been solid for two years now. I remember about 18 months ago he won 9 races at Calder, TRULY AMAZING!!!

[TopDog]

Eddie Castro, I remember that day because I bet on him in one race, he lost!

Also Rosie Napravnik is making a name for herself at Laurel.

[Mister Sanderson]

I am not going to classify any jock as Over-rated as everyday they are competiting in a daily duty that in a matter of seconds there career could be over.
Under-rated; Jose Lezcano, one of the best. He rode Deputy Glitters who lost by a nose to Bluegrass Cat than came back 5 weeks later and beat him for one example.
Eddie Castro is getting a lot of publicty now but he has been solid for two years now. I remember about 18 months ago he won 9 races at Calder, TRULY AMAZING!!!
you must be from Florida. both of those guys deserve their due. AND TOP DOG, if you read back in this thread, I brag on Rosie alot... SHE HAS BIG GUTS...

ANOTHER LADY WHO CAN RIDE IS EMMA JAYNE WILSON in ontario... she is legit, too

[madmartha]

where does Cornelio Velaquez stand with you all?
I have had luck with him - but he seems "under-rated"
I really like him.


also like Randall Toups
he tries so hard
and if he doesn't "win" -
still lands "in the money"

[Mister Sanderson]

where does Cornelio Velaquez stand with you all?
I have had luck with him - but he seems "under-rated"
I really like him.


also like Randall Toups
he tries so hard
and if he doesn't "win" -
still lands "in the money"

Another Good One. "Corn Hole" is a really good rider who get overshadowed I think partly because his last name, Velasquez. Most people think of another when that name is mentioned. But Cornelio is top notch, and I AGREE, Underated. Good to see him getting mounts like Showing Up. He belongs riding in those races. Mott has been a big supporter of his.

[totecapper]

Underrated: Jorge Chavez, Dave Cohen, Catalino Martinez(watch him in the future)
Underrated: Manuel Marquez, Jorge Periban(does well with claimers and a small barn), I second whoever said, Dick Dutrow

[madmartha]

I like David Cohen, too.
There's another young one to watch out for -
(oh, darn it, I'm tired from all my packing for this move )-
but, I think it's, well, there's an initial in front of the middle name and the last name is long. He's on the Calif circuit. Help!

[jimbo32]

I see an awful lot of big-name people being classified as "underrated" (like Jose Lezcano, Eddie Castro, Julien Leparoux). These guys are not underrated, they are stars.

To me, "underrated" means quality without recognition. So here are my top names in the saddle: Eddie King, Thomas Clifton, Dana Whitney, Travis Dunkelberger.

[coolbreeze]

You can say what you want about Wayne Lukas, But I worked for the man, And after doing so, I have so much respect for him and all of the acomplishments he has brought to the sport of racing. He has been such an amazing mentor. To just name a few Todd Plether, Kiran McLaughlin,George Weaver. A trainer is only as good as the workers he has around him, Its very important. And I was lucky enough to be there while both Todd, and George were, Along with Tabasco Cat. You need to look at the whole picture. This man has given his life, To improving In all areas of this great wonderfull chanlenging sport. It breaks my heart to hear anyone try and take away even a little from this man. He is one of the greatest achievers of our times, And one of the hardest,consistent, workers I have ever seen in my life. And he allways treated me with great respect. And I will tell you we owe it to him, To at least treat him with respect. I am not saying he is perfect, But who is. I am saying things would be a lot different around here if there never was A Wayne Lukas. He has touched so many people, And given so much to this great sport. He is one of the greastest trainers there ever was. And he has the stats to back it up. If you think that training horses is easy you should try and hang around a barn for awhile. And don't even forget, Some of the things the man has lost because of racing, Like a normal life of his son, These kind of things can take a toll on you, Without you even realizing. So try and look at whole picture before you make a judgement call on overraated trainers. Because in my eyes he could never be an overrated trainer.

[danstep43]

Maybe Wayne is past his prime, but in the 80's-90's all his horses were live. He is without a doubt one of the best listens for interviews that is out there regardless of how many horses he has in his stable. He is both articulate and funny to go along with his knowledge....

[deltasports]

You can say what you want about Wayne Lukas, But I worked for the man, And after doing so, I have so much respect for him and all of the acomplishments he has brought to the sport of racing. He has been such an amazing mentor. To just name a few Todd Plether, Kiran McLaughlin,George Weaver. A trainer is only as good as the workers he has around him, Its very important. And I was lucky enough to be there while both Todd, and George were, Along with Tabasco Cat. You need to look at the whole picture. This man has given his life, To improving In all areas of this great wonderfull chanlenging sport. It breaks my heart to hear anyone try and take away even a little from this man. He is one of the greatest achievers of our times, And one of the hardest,consistent, workers I have ever seen in my life. And he allways treated me with great respect. And I will tell you we owe it to him, To at least treat him with respect. I am not saying he is perfect, But who is. I am saying things would be a lot different around here if there never was A Wayne Lukas. He has touched so many people, And given so much to this great sport. He is one of the greastest trainers there ever was. And he has the stats to back it up. If you think that training horses is easy you should try and hang around a barn for awhile. And don't even forget, Some of the things the man has lost because of racing, Like a normal life of his son, These kind of things can take a toll on you, Without you even realizing. So try and look at whole picture before you make a judgement call on overraated trainers. Because in my eyes he could never be an overrated trainer.
================================================== ====
WELL D.WAYNE HAD INSTALLED ONE FIRST>>HE HAD A TIME CLOCK IN HIS BARN AT CHURCHILL FOR THE HOURLY WORKER TO PUNCH IN..THE 2ND LAST TIME I SAW WAYNE WAS AT GULFSTREAM SOME YEARS AGO WHILE HE WAS HAVING LUNCH WITH SATISH & MYSELF..THE LAST TIME WAS AT SANTA ANITA WHILE BAFFERT & I WERE WAITING FOR VINDICATION TO COME OUT ON THE TRACK.HE DID THINGS THAT NO OTHER TRAINER COULD DO OR WILL DO IN THE FUTURE..THE ONLY THING THAT BOTHERED ME WAS OVER LUNCH WITH SATISH,ME & WAYNE, HE DENIED EVER HAVING A HORSE BY THE NAME OF "TV DEGREE" ON HIS BOOKS IN 1980...I ORIGINALLY HAD TV DEGREE AT BELMONT PARK AND TRAVATO CLAIMED HIM FROM ME AND LATER SOLD HIM TO D.WAYNE FOR 80K AND SENT HIM TO CALIFORINA WHERE HE WON A FEW SMALL OVERNITE STAKES.WHEN I WALKED BY HIS BARN AT SAN LU REY TRAINING CENTER >I SAW HIS FOREMAN WALKING MY OLD HORSE "TV DEGREE" I SAID TO THE MAN>THATS MY OLD HORSE TV DEGREE,& HE SAID YES SIR..I ASKED IF WAYNE IS AROUND AND HE SAID HE IS AT HOLLYWOOD.THE FORMAN TOLD ME THAT TV DEGREE IS HERE BECAUSE WAYNE IS GIVING HIM A REST AS HE HAS TAILED OFF & SOMETHING IS BOTHERING HIM BEHIND..I TOLD HIM ITS HIS WHIRLBONE ON HIS RIGHT SIDE & SHOWED HIM WHERE & WHAT TO DO..THAT TOOK PLACE IN MAY 1980..
THE REASON I TOLD THIS LONG STORY IS TO ASK: HOW IN THE HELL CAN WAYNE LOOK ME IN THE EYE AND TELL ME HE NEVER HAD THAT HORSE ON HIS BOOKS EVER & THAT WAS AT GULFSTREAM PARK IN 2002 WHEN HE TOLD ME THAT SATISH'S (PADUA) FILLY WOULD WIN THE RACE WE WERE WATCHING AND I SAID "YAH, BUT DOES "XTRA HEAT' KNOW ABOUT THAT.
END OF STORY...TRUE gah;

[danstep43]

Delta, why would he keep that from you??? Doesn't make much sense at all...

[coolbreeze]

Listen, I train horses now, Riding horses, And there are times when I have had thirty head at one time, And if you were to ask me the names of ten of those horses I probably couldn't tell you but one name and that would only be because I can tell the horse has allot of quality, So I have more interest in the horses welfare. I don't have time to remember names I am training horses and thats what matters. A name is just a name, how the horse is doing health wise training wise eating wise.Thats whats important. Get the point, Were talking here about over rated trainers, I punched the same clock and I don't remember it ever bothering me. I care more about how a person treats me, Then all that other foolish stuff. And when I am training horses, Thats what I am concerned about the horse. Just look at his side of the coin. Just think of all the pain in the *** owners and workers he had to deal with besides every thing else he has to deal with. Feed Medication,Shipping, Entering horses. Give me a break, Try to even imagine what it takes to run a stable. And I am talking about 100s of horses. So give the man a break,Don't try to diminish all that he has given, And taught, Because he makes mistakes in his life. You could find all kinds of things about me that you might not like, But I can sure ride and train, Just like I am that horse. And I feel very blessed to have been able to work with some of the best trainers ever, Wayne Lukas, Todd, And George weaver. At the same time, each man had their own way of bringing out the best of each other. And all of us that worked together. It was a very very well run stable, clock and all. Breeze

[Mister Sanderson]

These two guys are great. I think their years and years of experience riding absolute pigs have made their transformation to the big circuits a success. IMO, they are the hottest two jocks in the country, and two of the best. BOTH OF WHICH I think abilities are vastly underrated on a national scale. CLINTON POTTS AND RAMSEY ZIMMERMAN..... they could ride for me anyday, a $4k claimer or a GI talent!

[deltasports]

from good sources>they say that RAMSEY HAS PIERCED BREASTS..MAYBE THAT HELPS

[Mister Sanderson]

from good sources>they say that RAMSEY HAS PIERCED BREASTS..MAYBE THAT HELPS
nipples you mean?


he also rides with a gag ball in his mouth ..;)

[Sherry]

I'll put Kevin Krigger in the mix; I always liked him. Gary Birzer. Rodney Prescott. Lester Knight. Jim Graham (cut teeth at Ellis; good kid; hardworker;Irish;Bono).

Scrussel Baze on the lead is seeyalaternitz
Court paid an awful lot for Red's tits;

PVal rules but has to shave the pubes
I know Bejarano's the best but I still always lose.

Gary Birzer was one of my favs.

[FLGamblers]

Two of the current top ten jocks, in terms of wins, are riding at Tampa Bay Downs. How's that for an undervalued stat? $)

[Mister Sanderson]

BRICE "F-ING" BLANC. I CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT TO MENTION THIS GUY. THE BEST TURF JOCK IN THE UNITED STATES, AND NO ONE OUTSIDE THE HARD CORES EVEN KNOWS THE GUY'S NAME. HE IS AWESOME ON THE SOD, ALWAYS HAS BEEN. I LOVE THOUGH, THAT HE IS A SECRET TO MOST OF THE U.S... BECAUSE, I CONTINUE TO GET GREAT PRICES ON HIM... I HOPE HE STAYS UNKNOWN, I'LL KEEP GETTING VALUE.

tro(

[Nijinsky]

Here's my 10 cents worth on this topic:

Overrated jocks: Desormeaux, Solis, R.Baze
Overrated trainers: Lukas, Baffert, Hollendorfer

Underrated jocks: Blanc, Valdivia, P.Val (sober or not-nobody better)
Underrated trainers: D.Hofmans, Gilchrist, Eoin Harty

[deltasports]

EOIN HARDY>>>> BAFFERTS FORMER ASSISTANT>>>>RUN OF THE MILL..BOTH OF THEM WAY OVER RATEDdo; do; td/ td/

[Nijinsky]

EOIN HARDY>>>> BAFFERTS FORMER ASSISTANT>>>>RUN OF THE MILL..BOTH OF THEM WAY OVER RATEDdo; do; td/ td/

Baffert has never done quite so well since Harty left his stable...
I think Eoin Harty has plenty of talent as a trainer...he was born sitting on a horse in Kildare, Ireland...great racing family the Hartys...he has always gotten the best from the horses he has had....just hasn't had too many good ones yet.

[deltasports]

And He Cant Use The Stuff He Used To Use Anymore

[mister zesterhouse]

Never been a fan of Harty's; Baffert not winning 30% anymore but still awesome.

Brice Blanc is a grass riding virtuoso--who is better?

[Mister Stigg]

Cowboy Jones!

[Mister Sanderson]

Tyler Baze is riding great. The ultimate compliment: the flake at the OTB now has added Tyler Baze to his small list of riders who use a buzzer. He claims (like always) that its just a matter of time before Baze gets caught.

Meanwhile, back here on planet Earth, Baze is looking and riding great.

[turnerfc]

Speaking of jockeys..do we know what happened to Cruz after Calder..Thanks fct

[turnerfc]

tu? [quote=turnerfc]Speaking of jockeys..do we know what happened to Cruz after Calder..Thanks fct

[Jerfi]

tu? [quote=turnerfc]Speaking of jockeys..do we know what happened to Cruz after Calder..Thanks fct


Which Cruz? There are several in the data bases....

[Mister Sanderson]

Miguel Mena is another addition here. David Flores is riding better than I've ever seen him go.

Overrated: I hate to say it, but Alex Solis is really not doing well... I like him personally from the interviews I've seen, but he is really squabbling.

[mister zesterhouse]

...been down on solis for awhile and flores is en fuego. mena cut teeth at ellis so of course i'm huge fan. jo-el rosario is real deal. jimmy grissle is a turf freak.
kent j is better than ever. kyle branch has a long way to go. tommy pompell winning turfway.

[Mister Sanderson]

These two guys are great. I think their years and years of experience riding absolute pigs have made their transformation to the big circuits a success. IMO, they are the hottest two jocks in the country, and two of the best. BOTH OF WHICH I think abilities are vastly underrated on a national scale. CLINTON POTTS AND RAMSEY ZIMMERMAN..... they could ride for me anyday, a $4k claimer or a GI talent!
Zimmerman still going well at FG... continuing his upward climb.

[Mister Sanderson]

Zimmerman still going well at FG... continuing his upward climb.
Zimmerman still rocking and rolling.

ALSO: Daniel Centeno - good
Richard Eramia - good

Watch out for Brian White as a trainer - Zesterhouse said he was a former Tom Proctor assistant, also I read somewhere that one of Pletchers assistants was going on his own I think it was the guy handling the NY horses... cant remember his name.

TRACY HEBERT -- will have a rebirth in Ky if he can stay half way clean. He still has alot of connections here and many people respect his riding ability, including me.

Alex Solis -- decline. Headley has parted ways with Alex. I feel bad for Alex, I think this might be the final straw in his decline down the pecking order. He seems like a great person, but his performance hasn't been so good. And Flores is scorching on Headley runners now.

Russell Baze is still pretty good too BTW. Rides a $4 k claimer as hard as a stakes horse. How can you not like Russell?

Eibar Coa continues to thrive.

TIM THORNTON -- has exploded on the radar.. dominated the Haw meet. Success at AP now too.

[Mister Sanderson]

These are some of the most overrated and underrated jocks and trainers that I believe have surfaced in the recent past. My memory jars back vividly at least 10 years. At my peak viewing, I visited the track 3-4 times a week, almost always weekly though no matter when.

OVERRATED -- JOCKS
1. Jerry Bailey .. I mean he's good, but he's not THAT much better than any of the best. I would argue that many top riders and some unknowns do a much better job moving up horses. If I could take 10 jockeys to ride my horses all in the same race, he wouldn't make my top 10. Plus, he kills a horse's price at the window. Pass. (I do believe he is better on turf. I much prefer him on that surface) I know I'll take some flack, but I'm a grinder and I see what I see.
2. Aaron Gryder .. Never been big on him. We used to call him "No Rider Gryder" in college. He still gets live mounts, especially in NY and some now in Cali, but unless he's sitting on the dead speed with triple class edge, I love to pass on him. Weak on late runners, and anything else for that matter.
3. Curt Borque .. I love Steve Borque, but Curt blows[/COLOR].

OVERRATED -- TRAINERS
1. LUKAS .. Simply put: He is a consistent disappointment. Never that I can remember has someone done so little with so much talent. I mean look at all of the best studs in the states. He trained em' all. Most of them were done at 2 as racers. Someone else should have that precocious Overbrook and Lewis stock. He's great to bet against at the windows, except for the big big days (i.e. triple crown, breeders cup), but hey those other days it's like fish in a barrel beating him. He's a far notch below even the average now on a consistent basis. HE'S DONE.
2. Brothers .. Almost always overbet, his stock of talent is always among the elite. And many of these horses turn out as underachievers in my book. Again, I'm not referring to the class of animal he's had such as First Samurai and Pulpit, I'm talking day to day mid-level chaimers to allowance types. And it's usually too obvious when he's got one ready for a win. I'm a Lasix man, he often runs his without (L). So many angles to consistently beat him.
3. Nick Hines .. I like his entusiasm, but here rarely even can get one to hold its form.. I've never seen one improve off the claim for him except a bottom claimer at Del Mar last summer. That shocked me. I think he's got alot to learn. If I trained out there, I would look for his best claiming talent, nab them, and give to Mitchell, Mullins, etc..

UNDERRATED -- JOCKS
1. Jon Court .. great on speed. Frankel should be castrated for taking him off Leriodsdesanimoux (thats close enough). He's great on speed. And I love the 1st time Court angle. It equals quality ride plus better price. He just rarely gets good mounts. Lukas gave him a pick up mount as Folklore's entrymate a few weeks ago on a horse that would've been 20 or 25 to 1. What happened? Folklore quit on a lone lead.. Jonny saved Lukas' *** getting up his rat entrymate. $2 million HONG KONG Cup on a O'Neill Allowance Horse. Beat the best horse in Japan by a nose. Never was ahead of that horse at any point of the race, before or after, except right at the WIRE. HE CAN RIDE.
2. Raphael Bejarano .. I think he's the best in the sport. Period.
3. A host of others Steve Borque in LA.. Filemon Rodriguez in TX.. Carlos Nieto in PN. P VAL (he's all the billing, and then some)..

UNDERRATED -- TRAINERS
1. DICK DUTROW .. He improves all import horses (i.e. Saint Liam), and gives you a consistent chance every time he throws one out there. He deserves the "Pletcher" attention because he does it for a higher percentage with less stock. Talented juvenile, your choice, Dutrow or Lukas? PLEASE..
2. LARRY JONES .. From my neck of the woods.. How about the emergence of Island Sand who I believe came from an excellent trainer Anthony Dutrow's barn. Check out her improvement. Josh's Madelyn, this horse has outrun her potential for over 3 years now. He's top notch and still relatively unknown. He has a small barn and there are rumors that he's a little finicky and a bit of a control freak. Fine, he wins. Who cares!
3. JOE CAIN .. Has routinely baad stock.. and wins, wins, wins. He only big time horse of note was Private Horde, who was in BC Sprint and won a big one at Saratoga. Cain just recently won Turfway meet I believe. I've been to his training quarters in central Ky.. it's immaculate..basically ran by he and his wife and little else help.. He's very good!

Write back.. I'm interested to hear what you guys think. THANKS SO MUCH.
lol.. looking back at this post i made at the beginning of 2006... wish i would've boxed my 2 underappreciated trainers in the Derby..

[Mister Sanderson]

Another Jock who rides great for me is Javier Santiago.. horses seem to respond for him. Any Maryland followers out there? Im out of touch with that circuit.. I like the big boys at last years Calder meet... Castro and Cruz
anyone know where this guy is? I liked him.

[Mister Sanderson]

fogelsonger should come to ellis
this is one kid I thought might explode onto the big scene. He still had good success, but only once has he ventured out of Maryland (California) and It wasn't a profitable move. I still think he can ride.

[Mister Sanderson]

BRICE "F-ING" BLANC. I CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT TO MENTION THIS GUY. THE BEST TURF JOCK IN THE UNITED STATES, AND NO ONE OUTSIDE THE HARD CORES EVEN KNOWS THE GUY'S NAME. HE IS AWESOME ON THE SOD, ALWAYS HAS BEEN. I LOVE THOUGH, THAT HE IS A SECRET TO MOST OF THE U.S... BECAUSE, I CONTINUE TO GET GREAT PRICES ON HIM... I HOPE HE STAYS UNKNOWN, I'LL KEEP GETTING VALUE.

tro(
switched agents.. getting better mounts.. great great grass rider, I still believe that.

[mister zesterhouse]

court borel bejarano mena lebron graham: will the young talent continue coming to ellis or is the decline permanent? couldn't get a slots bill OUT OF COMMITTEE. pathetic political leadership in this state. negligence in frankfort, utter disregard for the average person and family, i'd go as far as utter contempt for the common man. the elites in lexington, louisville, frankfort rule and live w/impunity. bluegrass freedom fund puts beshear in office: can't get
casinos ON THE BALLOT much less win. amoss and scherer go to mountain and presque isle so they don't have to run in KY. gah; gah; gah;

cigarette now needed

[mister zesterhouse]

keying locust bh) gah; gah;

[Mister Sanderson]

keying locust bh) gah; gah;
D WAYNE LOCUST ..?? yes, I'm breaking my rule of never "keying" Locust today. I'm sure I'll get the hot poker up my keyster doing that.

[mister zesterhouse]

lucky scratch

[mister zesterhouse]

http://news.bloodhorse.com//viewstory.asp?id=45422

good for solis. and he rode a headley chalk for a win the other day

[FastG45]

Kent is going to be on Regis & Kelly tomorrow 05-30-08 9:00 am est ABC

[Mister Sanderson]

Another one of the talented young guns... and "gunning" is what he is really good at: our Belmont winning Rider Alan Garcia - 21 years old.

[FastG45]

The little Swedish Girl “Inez Karlsson” is starting to make some noise at Arlington Park. Keep an eye on her. Her future is bright especially when she is working with Roger A.Brueggemann.

[FastG45]

The little Swedish Girl “Inez Karlsson”

Inez had 4 winners and 1 third yesterday at Arlington 08-15-08.

Two were chalk and one at 3.5-1 and one at 2.7-1.

I have noticed that she has won the first race a number times over the Arlington meet.

[FastG45]

Kieren Fallon is less than a year away from returning to race-riding and in preparation the six-time champion jockey is planning to travel to America to sharpen up.

Fallon was handed an 18-month worldwide ban from race-riding in January for testing positive for a banned substance at Deauville in August 2007.The 43-year-old has less than a year to serve and will spend some time in California to ensure he is at the top of his game when his suspension is up.

"I'm going to America for a while just to sharpen up. I'll ride plenty of work there because they do it out on the course proper. It's not like out on the gallops - you're on the racecourse and you're breezing around," he told At The Races.
"You work like a race. That gets the clock right and it gets you fit.
"I'll go to California, maybe before Christmas. You can work ten or 15 in the mornings and there are plenty of things to do there. California is a beautiful place."

Fallon has not ridden in Britain since July 2006 after having his UK racing licence suspended as a result of the investigation into alleged race-fixing. He was cleared of all charges only for his positive drugs test to come to light the following day and he is now counting down to the day when he can return to riding.

"It's around the corner and I can't wait," Fallon added.

[FastG45]

The little Swedish Girl “Inez Karlsson”

Hawthorne followers will note that jockey Diego Sanchez replaces Inez Karlsson on Big Al Cordes. That is because Karlsson, who had been aboard Big Al Cordes in his first four starts, is on a three-day suspension this week (Wednesday through Friday). Karlsson was suspended for letting her mount in the sixth race on Oct. 2, Kissit, drift in at the top of the stretch, which caused Chris Emigh on Sun for Fun to check sharply. Since Kissit finished sixth, and Sun for Fun third, there was no inquiry or disqualification.

Karlsson's absence this week is notable since so far this Hawthorne meet she has ridden more horses (61) than anyone else, and through Sunday topped the jockey standings with 11 wins, two more than Emigh. Near the end of the Arlington meet, Karlsson did not rule out riding somewhere other than Hawthorne this winter before her apprentice allowance expires next year, but her agent, Penny Ffitch-Heyes, said Tuesday that Karlsson intends to ride the entire meet here.

Big Al Cordes looks mildly suspect at the six-furlong distance of the featured seventh race on Thursday at Hawthorne.

[FastG45]

Anna Rosie Napravnik, a finalist for the 2006 Eclipse Award as outstanding apprentice rider and one of the top jockeys in Maryland, will ride this winter at Aqueduct beginning Saturday.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/images/Rosie-Napravnik-mccue.jpg

Klesaris, Anna's agent said. “I have an enormous amount of connections there. It will take two weeks for all of New York to know she’s there.”

[FastG45]

Kieren Fallon is less than a year away from returning to race-riding

Kieren green light to return in September

Kieren Fallon last night described how "a cloud has been lifted from over my head" after he was cleared to return to raceriding next September.

The British Horseracing Authority yesterday paved the way for the three-time Derby winner's comeback as it concluded its investigation into the alleged laying of horses ridden by Fallon, Dean McKeown and Dean Mernagh in 27 races in 2003 and 2004.

The BHA ruled that Fallon, currently serving a worldwide ban after testing positive for cocaine in August 2007, will not face an additional ban from its probe, or from evidence given during the race-fixing trial, which collapsed amid chaotic scenes in December last year.

Speaking from California yesterday, the six-time champion jockey, one of six men acquitted at the Old Bailey, said: "I feel like a cloud has been lifted - and that's the first time it's been lifted since my arrest over four years ago. Now I can't wait to get back. It's not until September, but time flies.

[FastG45]

Next generation of jockeys threatened by child obesity


Article by Nicola Woolcock

Child obesity and the shock of encountering hard physical labor is preventing today's teenagers from becoming the next generation of jockeys and stable lads, research suggests.
They are unable or unwilling to withstand the rigours of mucking out and riding for hours each day.

A university academic found a worrying decline in young people considering a career in horse racing. While many such recruits would not have succeeded as professional jockeys, they are essential for forming the backbone of the industry as stable lads or racecourse managers.
Deborah Butler, a college tutor and stable lad, found that fewer teenagers were light enough or eager to tackle the relentless manual work of looking after horses. She will say in her PhD on the industry: “This once ready supply of potential staff has been gradually contracting due to low levels of unemployment, the urbanisation of society, the trend for young people to stay on in further education, the younger generation's increasing body size and their unfamiliarity with the very physical nature of stable and stud work.”

Her findings were welcomed by industry experts. Rupert Arnold, chief executive of the National Trainers Federation, said: “There is a problem with body size, urbanisation and career expectations. The number of horses each employee is expected to look after has risen in the last 15 years.

“It's a long day, hard work and in all types of weather. That contributes to the difficulty. Many young people now have expectations of a different sort of lifestyle. We're employing quite a lot of migrant workers.” He said it was possible that the economic downturn would encourage more young people to enter the industry.

Of the thousand young people joining the industry each year, only 20 will succeed in becoming jockeys. Many of those who failed to make the grade would traditionally have worked for racehorse trainers by grooming and warming up the horses.

Ms Butler, 49, combines her PhD and part-time tutoring role at the University of Warwick with rising at 4.45am four days a week to work at a stables, mucking out and washing off the horses, and riding them for three hours a day.

She said that stable lads needed to be fit and used to physical labour, adding: “I think that's partly why we are not getting young people in so much. They're almost divorced from that type of work these days.”
She added that levels of pay posed problems for recruitment. Teenagers start on about £10,000 a year and an experienced stable lad earns between £16,000 and £18,000. Body size was also an issue. Jump racing jockeys were normally about 9st (57kg), while flat racing jockeys would be about 8st.

“We all know about growing obesity levels among young kids - that's having a detrimental effect,” Ms Butler said.

Warwick university said that Ms Butler's research had uncovered a significant wastage of talent in the industry. It has created a foundation degree in the horseracing industry (business, management and practice), which is being tested with a pilot programme that began last month.

[deltasports]

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION ONLY

WHITE KIDS ARE NOT INTERESTED TO BECOME A JOCKEY,EXCERCISE BOY OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN THIS DAY & AGE...ALSO THE WEIGHT IN STONES
ONE "STONE" = 14 LBS...THEY GO BY STONES IN ENGLAND & IRELAND..tro(

[FastG45]

I know what you mean Gene, I got this article from an English Newspaper, but I figured if they are fat over there, they are way more fat and lazy in America. Just thought it was interesting that someone would do a study on the subject.

[FastG45]

Teenage jockey posts 100 wins in record time

(Mainichi Japan) February 9, 2009

Nineteen-year-old jockey Kosei Miura became the fastest person to ever record 100 race wins in Japan following his victory on Saturday.

"I kept saying I was not focused on my 100th win," said Miura. "But honestly I was, and I was so happy when I achieved the milestone."

The Japan Racing Association (JRA) jockey recorded his 100th win in 11 months and seven days from his debut, beating the previous record of 13 months and 16 days set by Yutaka Take.

Miura won the fourth race at JRA's Tokyo Racecourse on Saturday while riding Infinite Air. Last year, Miura recorded 91 victories, which overhauled Take's longstanding JRA rookie record of 69 wins in one year, which had stood for 21 years.

Hope the kid makes it to America. Be cool if he could pick up a Derby mount.

Does anyone know if any Japan horses are being sent to the Derby?